Club For Sale?

ejh wrote:

It is such a shame as Argyle can be a self sufficient club. It is previous debts ran up by totally different individuals that look set to drag the club back into the quicksand again.

There is previous debt. That is a fact but it isn't quite as heavy a ball & chain as one might imagine.

In round figures the football creditor debt was about £4m on exit from administration. This is to be paid at 7% per annum with 50% due at the end of 5 years.

7% of £4m is "only" about £280k which isn't a huge proportion of the clubs turnover (maybe £4.5m?).

Even if it comes out of the 55% allowable for salaries due to Salary Cap Management protocol £280k doesn't make a huge dent in nearly £2.5m.

Obviously it doesn't help. Obviously it is money that could be spent more productively but we are where we are and that particular sum of money should be recoverable out of club income without disastrous consequences. It's a problem fore shore but a manageable one. Don't allow it to become a catch-all for all the club's ills.

The looming balloon payment of the 50% (approx. £2m to start with bit reduced a little since mostly due to Hourihane's sale) is a much more significant problem. One we were told would be solved by income from HHP and there ain't gonna be no income from HHP in the next 2 years - and probably not ever at all.

green_genie wrote:

Bandwagon wrote:

My train of thought is getting hazy with time - is it still the case that unless this bloody ice rink is built at HP, none of the other 'Plymouth' based property options can be started? If the case is this guy playing some sort of war of attrition with the football fans, Janner public and the council - waiting to be bailed out at profit? The Kassam analogy is looking like the mud that sticks - this guy is bad news all round!!

The Pavillions development is dependant upon the Ice Rink there being replaced elsewhere in the city.

The Civic Centre development isn't linked.

The prefer bidding that Brent had for the Civic Centre had ran out, (I think Damon posted it.)

Dingle wrote:

So when is the open fans' meeting where we have the opportunity to put questions to the club board going to take place?  

You mean those heavily edited, screened and questions submitted in advance so carefully prepared answers can be given things?

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

ejh wrote:

It is such a shame as Argyle can be a self sufficient club. It is previous debts ran up by totally different individuals that look set to drag the club back into the quicksand again.

There is previous debt. That is a fact but it isn't quite as heavy a ball & chain as one might imagine.

In round figures the football creditor debt was about £4m on exit from administration. This is to be paid at 7% per annum with 50% due at the end of 5 years.

7% of £4m is "only" about £280k which isn't a huge proportion of the clubs turnover (maybe £4.5m?).

Even if it comes out of the 55% allowable for salaries due to Salary Cap Management protocol £280k doesn't make a huge dent in nearly £2.5m.

Obviously it doesn't help. Obviously it is money that could be spent more productively but we are where we are and that particular sum of money should be recoverable out of club income without disastrous consequences. It's a problem fore shore but a manageable one. Don't allow it to become a catch-all for all the club's ills.

The looming balloon payment of the 50% (approx. £2m to start with bit reduced a little since mostly due to Hourihane's sale) is a much more significant problem. One we were told would be solved by income from HHP and there ain't gonna be no income from HHP in the next 2 years - and probably not ever at all.

The Football Creditor debt was £2.8m in October 2011 at the time of the exit from administration (see link below). Since then 50% of all 'unbudgeted income and that is now nearly three year's worth has gone directly to reducing the Football Creditor debt.So that includes income from transfer fees (not just Hourihane but some of the scholars too - Walton, Gallacher), TV money, Cup prize money, gate and commercial income from Cup matches and other income such as additional sponsorship and the like.

All that is in addition to the near £200,000 annual payment (the 7%) that is to be made under the terms of the agreement with the Football League. There is still two years to go before the balloon payment of 50% of the outstanding balance has to be paid in October 2016. Further unbudgeted income such as further transfers, TV and Cup income money and even above budget attendances if we are in the mix come the end of the season.

Last season the club were marginally short of their budget estimate of 7,400 for home attendances so with the same realism for this season improved performances and success on the pitch could be matched by increased gate and commercial income to further reduce the Football Creditor debt level.


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What has Brent done with his hotel business? Took dozens of hotels out of administration for a nominal fee, got shot of all the crap that doesn't make any money and now has some free hotels that it seems are quite profitable. Now let's move on to Plymouth Argyle, any land with any commercial value that can be split from the club has been and is now in his pension pot. Now how to get rid of the pesky club with all it's liabilities? No one will buy it unless for a pound because the value of the club is at parity with the cost of the balloon payment, will they want the risk? Doubt it. Now what has Brent got to lose personally if we don't make the payment? Loans to club?
It all smacks to me of a land grab gone horribly wrong, the exit strategy is what worries me most.

Found the plan which explains the importance of the 1.22 acres, which Graham has confirmed hasn't been transferred yet as new lease hasn't been signed.

If JB sells without gaining control of this, his land pocket has limited development potential.

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green_genie wrote:

Found the plan which explains the importance of the 1.22 acres, which Graham has confirmed hasn't been transferred yet as new lease hasn't been signed.

If JB sells without gaining control of this, his land pocket has limited development potential.

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The plan illustrates the importance to the future of the Football Club on ensuring that in any future sale of the club the HHP land either goes with it or there is enough land retained to enable a grandstand and concourse area to be built.

The blue is the HHP land owned by HHP Nominee Ltd, a James Brent owned company: the cross hatched area is the 1,22 acres to be bought out from the existing Football Club lease to enable the full HHP to be developed including the corner of the grandstand/Barn park area; the green is what the Football Club would continue to lease and pay rent on (or has the option to buy in October 2016) to the Council

So the 1.22 acres includes one corner of the stadium that could be lost to the club forever, you couldn't make it up   

A lot of what Graham cites as "additional income" such a first-round cup tie gate money & TV revenues are probably classed as budgeted income. Even allowing for a few minor transfer fees (what was received for Hourihane, pales into insignificance compared to what was received for the likes of Norris, Halmosi etc.) I suspect that there's still going to be a seven figure sum to cough up.


Can anyone really see JB parting with that sort of money for (what to him will be) no benefit?

AstiSpumante wrote:

So the 1.22 acres includes one corner of the stadium that could be lost to the club forever, you couldn't make it up   

None of it belongs to the football club anyway, so how can it be "lost" forever?

It was all "lost" years ago


The football club is a council tenant, just like all those people who live in Swilly, get used to it.

Grovehill wrote:

AstiSpumante wrote:

So the 1.22 acres includes one corner of the stadium that could be lost to the club forever, you couldn't make it up   

None of it belongs to the football club anyway, so how can it be "lost" forever?

It was all "lost" years ago


The football club is a council tenant, just like all those people who live in Swilly, get used to it.

But I'm assuming that that corner of the stadium is currently owned by the council(please inform me in your most cunty tone if I'm wrong) and is part of the footprint of the stadium which the club currently leases from PCC. Now if that land falls into the hands of Mr Brent who then decides to build a dental surgery or sells it to some ne'er do well who fancies knocking up fast food joint and a two bit motel then it will most certainly be lost to the club forever. Whaddya reckon Groovy ?

AstiSpumante wrote:

Grovehill wrote:

AstiSpumante wrote:

So the 1.22 acres includes one corner of the stadium that could be lost to the club forever, you couldn't make it up   

None of it belongs to the football club anyway, so how can it be "lost" forever?

It was all "lost" years ago


The football club is a council tenant, just like all those people who live in Swilly, get used to it.

But I'm assuming that that corner of the stadium is currently owned by the council(please inform me in your most cunty tone if I'm wrong) and is part of the footprint of the stadium which the club currently leases from PCC. Now if that land falls into the hands of Mr Brent who then decides to build a dental surgery or sells it to some ne'er do well who fancies knocking up fast food joint and a two bit motel then it will most certainly be lost to the club forever. Whaddya reckon Groovy ?

***Spits coffee over dog***   

Graham Clark wrote:

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

ejh wrote:

It is such a shame as Argyle can be a self sufficient club. It is previous debts ran up by totally different individuals that look set to drag the club back into the quicksand again.

There is previous debt. That is a fact but it isn't quite as heavy a ball & chain as one might imagine.

In round figures the football creditor debt was about £4m on exit from administration. This is to be paid at 7% per annum with 50% due at the end of 5 years.

7% of £4m is "only" about £280k which isn't a huge proportion of the clubs turnover (maybe £4.5m?).

Even if it comes out of the 55% allowable for salaries due to Salary Cap Management protocol £280k doesn't make a huge dent in nearly £2.5m.

Obviously it doesn't help. Obviously it is money that could be spent more productively but we are where we are and that particular sum of money should be recoverable out of club income without disastrous consequences. It's a problem fore shore but a manageable one. Don't allow it to become a catch-all for all the club's ills.

The looming balloon payment of the 50% (approx. £2m to start with bit reduced a little since mostly due to Hourihane's sale) is a much more significant problem. One we were told would be solved by income from HHP and there ain't gonna be no income from HHP in the next 2 years - and probably not ever at all.

The Football Creditor debt was £2.8m in October 2011 at the time of the exit from administration (see link below). Since then 50% of all 'unbudgeted income and that is now nearly three year's worth has gone directly to reducing the Football Creditor debt.So that includes income from transfer fees (not just Hourihane but some of the scholars too - Walton, Gallacher), TV money, Cup prize money, gate and commercial income from Cup matches and other income such as additional sponsorship and the like.

All that is in addition to the near £200,000 annual payment (the 7%) that is to be made under the terms of the agreement with the Football League. There is still two years to go before the balloon payment of 50% of the outstanding balance has to be paid in October 2016. Further unbudgeted income such as further transfers, TV and Cup income money and even above budget attendances if we are in the mix come the end of the season.

Last season the club were marginally short of their budget estimate of 7,400 for home attendances so with the same realism for this season improved performances and success on the pitch could be matched by increased gate and commercial income to further reduce the Football Creditor debt level.


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So it's costing us rather less than the £280k per annum I suggested.

Person Of Interest wrote:

AstiSpumante wrote:

Grovehill wrote:

AstiSpumante wrote:

So the 1.22 acres includes one corner of the stadium that could be lost to the club forever, you couldn't make it up   

None of it belongs to the football club anyway, so how can it be "lost" forever?

It was all "lost" years ago


The football club is a council tenant, just like all those people who live in Swilly, get used to it.

But I'm assuming that that corner of the stadium is currently owned by the council(please inform me in your most cunty tone if I'm wrong) and is part of the footprint of the stadium which the club currently leases from PCC. Now if that land falls into the hands of Mr Brent who then decides to build a dental surgery or sells it to some ne'er do well who fancies knocking up fast food joint and a two bit motel then it will most certainly be lost to the club forever. Whaddya reckon Groovy ?

***Spits coffee over dog***   

Poor dog, let's hope it wasn't too hot.............and decaffeinated   

Swilly do not belong to the Council, they give it to PCH

AstiSpumante wrote:

Grovehill wrote:

AstiSpumante wrote:

So the 1.22 acres includes one corner of the stadium that could be lost to the club forever, you couldn't make it up   

None of it belongs to the football club anyway, so how can it be "lost" forever?

It was all "lost" years ago


The football club is a council tenant, just like all those people who live in Swilly, get used to it.

But I'm assuming that that corner of the stadium is currently owned by the council(please inform me in your most cunty tone if I'm wrong) and is part of the footprint of the stadium which the club currently leases from PCC. Now if that land falls into the hands of Mr Brent who then decides to build a dental surgery or sells it to some ne'er do well who fancies knocking up fast food joint and a two bit motel then it will most certainly be lost to the club forever. Whaddya reckon Groovy ?

Whoever owns it, it ain't the football club (don't get me started on "why do people regard the football club as a separate entity as it is owned by JB--it's like saying Tesco at Lee Mill isn't really anything to do with all the other Tesco stores) so it can only be developed by or with the permission of the owner who will grab back any profit made thereon.


PS well spotted, I do live in a rural location, but the word you were trying to use is spelt "cOuntRy" Suggest you try spellchecker or an on-line dictionary (book full of words in alphabetical order) next time

Would'nt it be great if we could find a wealthy football fan owner, to say bye bye to the bucket rattlers the tent dwellers the freaks in the D box,free transfer shite signings and get that ambitious winning club feel, back to homepark.

sufferedsince 68 wrote:

Would'nt it be great if we could find a wealthy football fan owner, to say bye bye to the bucket rattlers the tent dwellers the freaks in the D box,free transfer shite signings and get that ambitious winning club feel, back to homepark.

HOW?
  

akagreengull wrote:

sufferedsince 68 wrote:

Would'nt it be great if we could find a wealthy football fan owner, to say bye bye to the bucket rattlers the tent dwellers the freaks in the D box,free transfer shite signings and get that ambitious winning club feel, back to homepark.

HOW?
  

Well i'm saving hard aka, got nearly 40 quid in me Squiffy The Squirrel Savers account, ten years time when the clubs in the southern league i should have enough to buy out speccy!     

Grovehill wrote:

AstiSpumante wrote:

Grovehill wrote:

AstiSpumante wrote:

So the 1.22 acres includes one corner of the stadium that could be lost to the club forever, you couldn't make it up   

None of it belongs to the football club anyway, so how can it be "lost" forever?

It was all "lost" years ago


The football club is a council tenant, just like all those people who live in Swilly, get used to it.

But I'm assuming that that corner of the stadium is currently owned by the council(please inform me in your most cunty tone if I'm wrong) and is part of the footprint of the stadium which the club currently leases from PCC. Now if that land falls into the hands of Mr Brent who then decides to build a dental surgery or sells it to some ne'er do well who fancies knocking up fast food joint and a two bit motel then it will most certainly be lost to the club forever. Whaddya reckon Groovy ?

Whoever owns it, it ain't the football club (don't get me started on "why do people regard the football club as a separate entity as it is owned by JB--it's like saying Tesco at Lee Mill isn't really anything to do with all the other Tesco stores) so it can only be developed by or with the permission of the owner who will grab back any profit made thereon.


PS well spotted, I do live in a rural location, but the word you were trying to use is spelt "cOuntRy"  Suggest you try spellchecker or an on-line dictionary (book full of words in alphabetical order) next time

Doesn't surprise me   

Tgwu wrote:

Swilly do not belong to the Council, they give it to PCH

I have an image of Paris Cowan Hall dressed in a fur coat and hat like an 80s pimp from the Bronx, going from door to door in Swilly collecting his rents.

Grovehill wrote:

AstiSpumante wrote:

Grovehill wrote:

AstiSpumante wrote:

So the 1.22 acres includes one corner of the stadium that could be lost to the club forever, you couldn't make it up   

None of it belongs to the football club anyway, so how can it be "lost" forever?

It was all "lost" years ago


The football club is a council tenant, just like all those people who live in Swilly, get used to it.

But I'm assuming that that corner of the stadium is currently owned by the council(please inform me in your most cunty tone if I'm wrong) and is part of the footprint of the stadium which the club currently leases from PCC. Now if that land falls into the hands of Mr Brent who then decides to build a dental surgery or sells it to some ne'er do well who fancies knocking up fast food joint and a two bit motel then it will most certainly be lost to the club forever. Whaddya reckon Groovy ?

Whoever owns it, it ain't the football club (don't get me started on "why do people regard the football club as a separate entity as it is owned by JB--it's like saying Tesco at Lee Mill isn't really anything to do with all the other Tesco stores) so it can only be developed by or with the permission of the owner who will grab back any profit made thereon.


PS well spotted, I do live in a rural location, but the word you were trying to use is spelt "cOuntRy"  Suggest you try spellchecker or an on-line dictionary (book full of words in alphabetical order) next time

FS Grovehill. is that needed? we're (mostly) on the same side here.

Tbf it was in reply to a cOuntRy post.