East Coast Mainline

I see it has failed and is going to be nationalised. Again.

Privatisation of the railways fails. Again.

If Corbyn is right about anything it really is time to end this nonsense and bring the whole lot back under government ownership.

Because we had excellent well invested railways in the 70s and 80s didn't we?

Maybe we could learn something from both eras and get something that works for everybody? Whilst this left/right labCon rhetoric goes on nothing changes, Labour and Conservatives both feck the country up they just use different methods.

Well said

argyl3 wrote:

Because we had excellent well invested railways in the 70s and 80s didn't we?

You'll find that the bulk, if not all investment into rail infrastructure comes from Network Rail which is an arms length Government owned company.

The history of UK railways is simple and there for all to see.
Private companies take profits when times are good, the government picks up the pieces when there's no profit to be had. The same thing is also happening with care homes. Private companies are no good at these sort of things.
I'm happy we are in a period where trains and other essential utilities are going back to where they should always have been, under government control. It makes economic sense. The trains down here are appalling. 4 out of every 5 trains I catch are late, and off peak travel prices have been going through the roof. 20% increase this year alone !!

Not only is the service shocking but the pricing is exorbitant.

They might have been crap in the 70s too but at least they were affordable.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Not only is the service shocking but the pricing is exorbitant.

They might have been crap in the 70s too but at least they were affordable.

That affordability wasn't reflected in arses on seats though.

Apparently Chris Grayling has now nationalised more railways than any Labour minister in the last 60 years.

Whereas it may be Labour Party policy to nationalise the railways it is only fair to say that Grayling is actually doing it.

Because they were crap.

Personally I'd take a properly invested and up to date brand new train over a 40 year old express, which is exactly what is being rolled out by a private company now. Rolling stock investment is huge across the network.

Some of this same stock cannot run at its top speed because of delays and issued around infrastructure managed by a ,yes , arm's length government owned organisation.

To be fair Railtrack was privatised but it went bust and had to be nationalised or else there would be no rails for any of the trains to run on at all.

Indians moan like feck about their antiquated rolling stock, it is really really old, but guess what the train system works much better, is more affordable by miles, even to Indians. I don't see the need for brand new trains just more of them and much cheaper like a third of the price they are now.

argyl3 wrote:

Because they were crap.

Personally I'd take a properly invested and up to date brand new train over a 40 year old express, which is exactly what is being rolled out by a private company now. Rolling stock investment is huge across the network.

Some of this same stock cannot run at its top speed because of delays and issued around infrastructure managed by a ,yes , arm's length government owned organisation.

Again rolling stock investment is nothing to do with private enterprise.

Rolling stock is specified, tendered and purchase by Government. It is then sold on to what are known as Rolling Stock Operating Company (ROSCO's), who then lease them out to the Train Operating Company. Rosco's which are generally owned offshore are particularly shadowy enterprises, without looking them up you wouldnt have a clue who they are.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Apparently Chris Grayling has now nationalised more railways than any Labour minister in the last 60 years.

Whereas it may be Labour Party policy to nationalise the railways it is only fair to say that Grayling is actually doing it.

Its true. the UK rail network is unique in that so many of the Train operators are nationalised. Its Just not our own Nation that operates them.

The German Government owned Deutsche Bahn, operates Chiltern, Northern, Grand Central, Wales and Borders, tyne Metro and Cross Country services
The Italian Government owned Trenitalia, operates the Liverpool St Southend Service
The French Government owned Keolis operates Gatwick Express, London Midland, Southern, South Eastern and DLR lines
The Dutch Government owned Abellio operates Scotrail and Greater Anglia Services
The Euro Star is a joint venture between the French and Belgian Governments

Selling England, and the rest of the UK, By the Pound.

seadog wrote:

Selling England, and the rest of the UK, By the Pound.

FFS! Why didn't we listen to Genesis? In all honesty it's no wonder we are struggling as a country we literally can't wait to give away our assets. Why is it that other countries manage to run their own railways and bits of ours as well? These cnuts baffle me they really do.

Blinkered ideology, private is best, if it isn't subsidise it until it is.

Hugh Watt wrote:

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Apparently Chris Grayling has now nationalised more railways than any Labour minister in the last 60 years.

Whereas it may be Labour Party policy to nationalise the railways it is only fair to say that Grayling is actually doing it.

Its true. the UK rail network is unique in that so many of the Train operators are nationalised. Its Just not our own Nation that operates them.

The German Government owned Deutsche Bahn, operates Chiltern, Northern, Grand Central, Wales and Borders, tyne Metro and Cross Country services
The Italian Government owned Trenitalia, operates the Liverpool St Southend Service
The French Government owned Keolis operates Gatwick Express, London Midland, Southern, South Eastern and DLR lines
The Dutch Government owned Abellio operates Scotrail and Greater Anglia Services
The Euro Star is a joint venture between the French and Belgian Governments

Unique?

EU legislation

Legislation is based on a distinction between infrastructure managers who run the network and railway companies that use it for transporting passengers or goods. Different organisational entities must be set up for transport operations on the one hand and infrastructure management on the other. Essential functions such as the allocation of rail capacity (“train paths” that companies need to be able to operate trains on the network), infrastructure charging and licensing must be separated from the operation of transport services and performed in a neutral fashion to give new rail operators fair access to the market. Moreover, it must be guaranteed that public funds for infrastructure and for the payment of compensation for transport services under public service obligations may not be used to finance transport operations. This is to avoid distortions of competition and the unfair use of public money.

EU Member States must also have regulatory bodies in place to monitor railway markets and to act as an appeal body for rail companies if they believe they have been unfairly treated.

Directive 2012/34/EU recasting the First Railway Package contains the basic provisions for market opening in the railway sector.


EU 4TH Market package 2016

The market pillar will complete the process of gradual market opening started with the 1st railway package. It establishes the general right for railway undertakings established in one Member State to operate all types of passenger services everywhere in the EU

These being the sort of reasons why JC wants to leave the EU.

Yes your right, JC is prevented by law from nationalising any non failing privatised operation while we remain in the EU. It's the law period. And you have the EU to thank for that, it's the same reason buses, water, electricity, gas, telecoms were l privatised in the 80s sadly it would cost a small fortune (or magic money tree) to buy them back into public ownership

More pertinent down here in the real world is Great Western are trying to get rid of all the Devon and Cornwall branch lines, want to create a seperate loss making company away from the main Paddington line. Charming.
Lock them all up, take their assets.
As for "Privatisation" it didn't "come from the EU". It came from the dominant capitalist economics of Reagan and Thatcher, of which the EU are certainly a major player along with Westminster and Washington. It's falling apart.
Mixed economy is where it should end up, where labour meets capital meets customer and doesn't blow a gasket.

don't worry, he's going to borrow five hundred billion.....

Where it 'comes from' historically is of no consequence, where it is currently legislated from is.

Trump, the latest arch capitalist, is going to borrow trillions and trillions on top of the trillions and trillions already stacking up. He's going to make America great again. Shouldn't cost much
The world is on the change, unstoppable forces. Got the feeling there will be a nasty punch up.

PatDunne wrote:

Hugh Watt wrote:

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Apparently Chris Grayling has now nationalised more railways than any Labour minister in the last 60 years.

Whereas it may be Labour Party policy to nationalise the railways it is only fair to say that Grayling is actually doing it.

Its true. the UK rail network is unique in that so many of the Train operators are nationalised. Its Just not our own Nation that operates them.

The German Government owned Deutsche Bahn, operates Chiltern, Northern, Grand Central, Wales and Borders, tyne Metro and Cross Country services
The Italian Government owned Trenitalia, operates the Liverpool St Southend Service
The French Government owned Keolis operates Gatwick Express, London Midland, Southern, South Eastern and DLR lines
The Dutch Government owned Abellio operates Scotrail and Greater Anglia Services
The Euro Star is a joint venture between the French and Belgian Governments

Unique?

EU legislation

Legislation is based on a distinction between infrastructure managers who run the network and railway companies that use it for transporting passengers or goods. Different organisational entities must be set up for transport operations on the one hand and infrastructure management on the other. Essential functions such as the allocation of rail capacity (“train paths” that companies need to be able to operate trains on the network), infrastructure charging and licensing must be separated from the operation of transport services and performed in a neutral fashion to give new rail operators fair access to the market. Moreover, it must be guaranteed that public funds for infrastructure and for the payment of compensation for transport services under public service obligations may not be used to finance transport operations. This is to avoid distortions of competition and the unfair use of public money.

EU Member States must also have regulatory bodies in place to monitor railway markets and to act as an appeal body for rail companies if they believe they have been unfairly treated.

Directive 2012/34/EU   recasting the First Railway Package contains the basic provisions for market opening in the railway sector.


EU 4TH Market package 2016

The market pillar will complete the process of gradual market opening started with the 1st railway package. It establishes the general right for railway undertakings established in one Member State to operate all types of passenger services everywhere in the EU

How is it then that the Dutch state manages to run the Dutch railway, The Italian State is able to run the Italian Railway, The German state is able to run the German railway.....?

argyl3 wrote:

Yes your right, JC is prevented by law from nationalising any non failing privatised operation while we remain in the EU. It's the law period. And you have the EU to thank for that, it's the same reason buses, water, electricity, gas, telecoms were l privatised in the 80s sadly it would cost a small fortune (or magic money tree) to buy them back into public ownership

This is another common misconception. The Labour Party manifesto did not commit to buying back contacts, its proposal is to let contracts run down and not re-tender them. AS usual the magic money tree is easily shaken when theres a Royal Wedding, Syria or when the Government needs the support of a bunch of Evolution denying bigots to shore up their parliametary majority.