The Ice Rink.

I think it's time some debate was had over some of the other things that will have an impact on Argyle's future. I won't profess to know much about this but as this is the main reason ( and the underground car park) that the south stand will be so restricted in size it needs looking at.

I'm wondering why it's being built with 1500 seats. Is this large enough for events? Is it too small. Who will be sitting in these seats? Parents watching their kids whizzing around is obvious. Ice shows are another. How many tour the country? People I've spoken to, think maybe 1-3. Is this correct? What size ice arenas are needed in terms of spectators for these shows to be viable?

The other obvious one is Ice Hockey. James Brent is on record ( somewhere) as saying he's not interested in a Ice Hockey team franchise. Is someone else interested? If so is 1500 seats enough?

I've tried to do a bit of googling to research this but it's not my favourite past time. I get bored easily. What I did manage to find out which wasn't easy, is some Ice Hockey teams seem to suffer financial problems and indeed several ice rinks have closed or been rebuilt. As for capacities of their arena's the smallest seems to be around the 2000 seat mark, some are much bigger. I couldn't find figures for 3 or 4 teams but you could tell from pictures that they were sizable arena's. There were one or two arena's that looked small, at Oxford and particularly one near Blackpool where a team called Fylde Flyers reside. They confused me as their arena only holds 300? Whether they exist on sponsorship alone I don't know.

So my two questions are: Is this arena going to be too small for major events like Ice Hockey and ice shows? In which case is this another Plymouth has built something too small again? If the idea is not to have these types of events, why build it with 1500 seats in the first place?

I'm sure some of you are better at research than I am and I'm positive some of you will add to the debate.

One other thing to put into the pot - if Plymouth is to have an Ice Hockey team one vital revenue stream will be the youth development. Raiders, for example, make a significant percentage of their income from schools basketball training, which in turn leads to U18, U16, U14 and U12 teams. Put that number of teams and schools on the ice regularly, plus a daily training programme for the pro team, chuck in 20 odd home games a season, 5 or 6 days of Disney on Ice, same again for Dancing on Ice plus the odd competition or two and there doesn't leave much time for little Johnny to go skating with his Mum.

I've been wondering about the viability of an Ice Rink, especially if there is no ice hockey team to support it.

As far as I know Yorkshire has the following:

Leeds, a city far larger than Plymouth, doesn't have an permanent ice rink, although the council put a temporary one up over Christmas. Neighbouring Bradford has one, but it appears to be constantly struggling to stay afloat [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Sheffield has an ice rink, but it's used by the Sheffield Steelers Ice Hockey team, and is part of the larger Motorpoint Arena complex which is owned by a non-profit making charitable trust. Doncaster also has an Icerink in Doncaster dome, but the whole Dome complex is run (and presumably subsidised) by the council.

The original Life Centre plans had a dual use building on cottage field.
No capacity was stated but it would have been able to house the Raiders and concerts / conferences.

What is the likelihood of the Ice rink taking Disney on Ice etc off Exeter Westpoint with a capacity of 7500.

Stuart C on Pasoti has posted this, as I've asked similar question there as well.


The swindon wildcats play in the Link Centre with capacity of 2,800 for Ice Rink in multipurpose facility taking 6,000 including swimming.
They play in the second string English Premier Ice Hockey league and a quick shufty at their competition shows

Basingstoke Bison 2000
Guildford spectrum 2000
Trafford Metros 3000
Milton Keynes 2800
Sheffield Steeldogs 1500. Unfortunately these are poor neighbours to Steelers at their 10,000 arena

So adding the 10 rinks home to Elite Ice Hockey franchises there is a lot of larger competition for Ice Skating shows and events including Exeter Westpoint which takes 7,500 for Holiday on Ice etc.

So we're left with a halfway house. Too big for local competitions and too small for national events

Wasn't this a problem with Plymouth's old swimming pool - surely PCC will have learnt their lesson by now.

Didn't half make you feel good as a kid to think you had broke a national record.

Then some idiot teacher tells you the pool's 14m short.

White elephant

Slough has an ice rink and hockey team with over 1000 seats.

It's time for James to go back to the drawing board.

GOB wrote:

It's time for James to go back to the drawing board.

This.

What staggers me about the entire plan is that it is almost unbelieveably bad in almost every conceivable way. I can't imagine why anybody would want to support it. All I can think of is that Brent supplied a spec to an architect somewhere saying "maximise the commercial activity on the land that I own and maximise the profit I can make" and so the architect threw common sense out of the window and did just that.

The problems with it are stacking up and are beginning to appear insurmountable. It isn't just the asset-stripping of Argyle (although quite clearly every asset Argyle ever had will have been stripped). Nor is it just the controversially tiny and inadequate grandstand. Nor is it just the seemingly unlikely expansion plans (which have actually been rejected as possible but too expensive and too impractical by Akkeron's own project manager). Nor is it just the restricted view the seats in the expansion would suffer. Nor is it just every revenue stream possible being hived off. Nor is it just the farcical routing of the new road. Nor is it just the expansion onto the city's must-not-be-touched green lung. Nor is it the building of a similarly inadequate and tiny ice arena. Nor is it the questionable presence of the hotel, cinema and school. Nor is it the siting of a controversial development within the park. Nor is it the massive increase in traffic both during the build and after. Nor is it the threat it poses to the listed trees...

The fact is that the whole plan, integrated and carefully costed by experts apparently, is a crap plan because the spec it meets was crap to start with but nobody ever says "no" to James and so this simple, crucial, basic fact eludes him.

If the plan gets rejected it won't be because of a few arsey football fans being objectionable and awkward it'll be because those responsible for making the key decisions fecked it up from the outset.

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

One other thing to put into the pot - if Plymouth is to have an Ice Hockey team one vital revenue stream will be the youth development. Raiders, for example, make a significant percentage of their income from schools basketball training, which in turn leads to U18, U16, U14 and U12 teams. Put that number of teams and schools on the ice regularly, plus a daily training programme for the pro team, chuck in 20 odd home games a season, 5 or 6 days of Disney on Ice, same again for Dancing on Ice plus the odd competition or two and there doesn't leave much time for little Johnny to go skating with his Mum.

THe youth ice hockey would be the only thing they could do as i cant see a team going there and being able to take off. The Elite league in britain is out of the question due to the small capacity it will have. Maybe the Raiders could go play there whilst the pavillions is being rebuilt i wonder.

i cant see the ice rink making too much money or being used on a level to warrant disabling a football clubs future for anyway.

Akkeron's man at the Theatre Royal said that the Ice Arena was expected to run at a loss once completed.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

GOB wrote:

It's time for James to go back to the drawing board.

This.

What staggers me about the entire plan is that it is almost unbelieveably bad in almost every conceivable way. I can't imagine why anybody would want to support it. All I can think of is that Brent supplied a spec to an architect somewhere saying "maximise the commercial activity on the land that I own and maximise the profit I can make" and so the architect threw common sense out of the window and did just that.

The problems with it are stacking up and are beginning to appear insurmountable. It isn't just the asset-stripping of Argyle (although quite clearly every asset Argyle ever had will have been stripped). Nor is it just the controversially tiny and inadequate grandstand. Nor is it just the seemingly unlikely expansion plans (which have actually been rejected as possible but too expensive and too impractical by Akkeron's own project manager). Nor is it just the restricted view the seats in the expansion would suffer. Nor is it just every revenue stream possible being hived off. Nor is it just the farcical routing of the new road. Nor is it just the expansion onto the city's must-not-be-touched green lung. Nor is it the building of a similarly inadequate and tiny ice arena. Nor is it the questionable presence of the hotel, cinema and school. Nor is it the siting of a controversial development within the park. Nor is it the massive increase in traffic both during the build and after. Nor is it the threat it poses to the listed trees...

The fact is that the whole plan, integrated and carefully costed by experts apparently, is a crap plan because the spec it meets was crap to start with but nobody ever says "no" to James and so this simple, crucial, basic fact eludes him.

If the plan gets rejected it won't be because of a few arsey football fans being objectionable and awkward it'll be because those responsible for making the key decisions fecked it up from the outset.

Educated wanker. We'll not have any common sense here if you don't mind!

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Akkeron's man at the Theatre Royal said that the Ice Arena was expected to run at a loss once completed.

then why on earth do they want to build an ice arena for? why not just build it ajacent to the life centre and run it as part of that would have been cheaper and means the club can have a decent stand in the future.

Or Cottage Field but that would mean building it on park land.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Or Cottage Field but that would mean building it on park land.

you cant build it on there thats earmarked for a circus

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

GOB wrote:

It's time for James to go back to the drawing board.

This.

What staggers me about the entire plan is that it is almost unbelieveably bad in almost every conceivable way. I can't imagine why anybody would want to support it. All I can think of is that Brent supplied a spec to an architect somewhere saying "maximise the commercial activity on the land that I own and maximise the profit I can make" and so the architect threw common sense out of the window and did just that.

The problems with it are stacking up and are beginning to appear insurmountable. It isn't just the asset-stripping of Argyle (although quite clearly every asset Argyle ever had will have been stripped). Nor is it just the controversially tiny and inadequate grandstand. Nor is it just the seemingly unlikely expansion plans (which have actually been rejected as possible but too expensive and too impractical by Akkeron's own project manager). Nor is it just the restricted view the seats in the expansion would suffer. Nor is it just every revenue stream possible being hived off. Nor is it just the farcical routing of the new road. Nor is it just the expansion onto the city's must-not-be-touched green lung. Nor is it the building of a similarly inadequate and tiny ice arena. Nor is it the questionable presence of the hotel, cinema and school. Nor is it the siting of a controversial development within the park. Nor is it the massive increase in traffic both during the build and after. Nor is it the threat it poses to the listed trees...

The fact is that the whole plan, integrated and carefully costed by experts apparently, is a crap plan because the spec it meets was crap to start with but nobody ever says "no" to James and so this simple, crucial, basic fact eludes him.

If the plan gets rejected it won't be because of a few arsey football fans being objectionable and awkward it'll be because those responsible for making the key decisions fecked it up from the outset.

I agree. When I'm doing as essay for uni, it sometimes gets to the stage where there are just too many weak points , flaws and logical holes that instead of making amendments to it, the best thing is to just start again.

Whilst I'm not saying that planning the HHP re-development is anything like as simple as writing an essay...you get the idea.

Also: what do people think that the plans will be at Milbay? Cause he's obviously got the land to do something with it. The ice rink, the Swimming pool (life centre) are both catered for in and around HHP. So what will be built on Milbay: a new concert and Basketball venue presumably. What else?

Sam,

The Millbay "plans" are to knock down the front section of the Pavillions containing the Ice Rink and Leisure Pool to give room for redevlopment. Originally Akkeron were talking about retail / leisure units and a hotel. In the latest interview with James Brent he is hedging his bets on the Hotel and talks of mixed residential usage (student accommodation), which will be because he is talking to his friend Mr Evans about another prime city centre spot in need of redevelopment.

The existing Pavillions concert hall is to be expanded by 10% and the sound / lighting upgraded.

The real driver for Millbay and HHP is the boulevard to link the Union Rooms cross roads to the redevelopment at Millbay docks. There will be dozens of prime retail/leaisure units to be sold of there. Unfortunately, there. are no published plans for the scheme, only a "clear as mud" CGI.

I do not want any development in the park, but this could work.

The main car-park holds about 700 car spaces Brent car park will hold 400 spaces, the main car park could be made a multi storey by going down two levels, they could built the Ice Rink on the top of the top car-park at the end nearest the Life centre, or because of the multi car-park no need for the new one they built for the Life centre, so built the ice rink there.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Akkeron's man at the Theatre Royal said that the Ice Arena was expected to run at a loss once completed.

I can confirm this, I was there when he said it.

green_genie wrote:

Sam,

The Millbay "plans" are to knock down the front section of the Pavillions containing the Ice Rink and Leisure Pool to give room for redevlopment. Originally Akkeron were talking about retail / leisure units and a hotel. In the latest interview with James Brent he is hedging his bets on the Hotel and talks of mixed residential usage (student accommodation), which will be because he is talking to his friend Mr Evans about another prime city centre spot in need of redevelopment.

The existing Pavillions concert hall is to be expanded by 10% and the sound / lighting upgraded.

The real driver for Millbay and HHP is the boulevard to link the Union Rooms cross roads to the redevelopment at Millbay docks. There will be dozens of prime retail/leaisure units to be sold of there. Unfortunately, there. are no published plans for the scheme, only a "clear as mud" CGI.

The pavilions currently holds 4000 or 2500 seated. Everybody knows that is not big enough for major rock bands.

A 10% increase on that making it 4400 is hardly worth the effort as it still won't be big enough

For the love of god when will Plymouth ever do something right.

Richard Blight wrote:

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Akkeron's man at the Theatre Royal said that the Ice Arena was expected to run at a loss once completed.

I can confirm this, I was there when he said it.

500 extra standing, no extra for the basketball and where will they play when the up grade is being done?