Break the Wage Cap!

It would be interesting to see the figures as they stand and just how close to the cap we are.

A question for an incoming Trust board with a mandate from 1,515 members to ask, perhaps.

I do recall that in the 2009 accounts filed at CH the club were spending 87% or so of turnover on salary. We know where that led.

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

The total paid for the entire freehold was £700k - which was paid to Lombard, then JB sold the stadium to the Council for £1.6million. Lombard is now chasing the remaining £1.35million on the debt from the 5 original guarantors of the mortgage.

Thanks Damon,

So JB is 900k up on the 'land' part of the deal? How much has JB actually laid out of his own money to buy the club?

Who are the five on the hook to Lombard?

I don't know how much JB has spent...there was the downpayment on the football creditors debt, downpayment on the old trust loan, legal fees etc.... I do know the 5 on the hook for the balance of the mortgage...Stapleton, Dennerly, Gill, Wrathall and yours truly......although as I am broke i am guessing they'll have to turn to the others.

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

I don't know how much JB has spent...there was the downpayment on the football creditors debt, downpayment on the old trust loan, legal fees etc.... I do know the 5 on the hook for the balance of the mortgage...Stapleton, Dennerly, Gill, Wrathall and yours truly......although as I am broke i am guessing they'll have to turn to the others.

I am sorry to hear you are broke. Regretably, Mr. Dennerly has much bigger concerns, and it is likely that his family will feel the double whammy of his personal situation more than most!

The seven is down to three!

On a personal note...
I know very little of what actually went on...

I am not into IJN 'Peggy' hunts!

Going forward... I wish you the best of luck!

I certainly enjoy your candidness on ATD - much appreciated.

"It's life Jim but not as we know it"!

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

I don't know how much JB has spent...there was the downpayment on the football creditors debt, downpayment on the old trust loan, legal fees etc.... I do know the 5 on the hook for the balance of the mortgage...Stapleton, Dennerly, Gill, Wrathall and yours truly......although as I am broke i am guessing they'll have to turn to the others.

That seems particurlarly rough when you had left the board and it was others who got the club in the brown stuff.

It seemed like Gill was suprised to find out he was still in the frame as a guarantor. Was it the same for you?

Yes it was. On leaving the Board I signed paperwork whereby I requested to be removed as a Guarantor and the Club signed requesting that I be removed as a Guarantor. Unfortunately it wasn't for us to request, but for Lombard to grant - which they refused.

Back on topic I left the Board in July 2007. The 2006-7 accounts show that we made a healthy profit based on a self-imposed wage cap of 65% of turnover.

Rickler wrote:

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

I don't know how much JB has spent...there was the downpayment on the football creditors debt, downpayment on the old trust loan, legal fees etc.... I do know the 5 on the hook for the balance of the mortgage...Stapleton, Dennerly, Gill, Wrathall and yours truly......although as I am broke i am guessing they'll have to turn to the others.

I am sorry to hear you are broke. Regretably, Mr. Dennerly has much bigger concerns, and it is likely that his family will feel the double whammy of his personal situation more than most!

The seven is down to three!

On a personal note...
I know very little of what actually went on...

I am not into IJN 'Peggy' hunts!

Going forward... I wish you the best of luck!

I certainly enjoy your candidness on ATD - much appreciated.

Thanks for your good wishes Rickler - just wanted to pint out that I was never one of the seven!!!

merse wrote:

Mutley-Green wrote:

With the countless other unsecured creditors paid just 0.7p in the £

I understood it to be 0.077pence in the pound ~ but either way it is a hell of a difference to the actual amount owed. It's one thing to be a major corporation accepting that at a creditors' meeting but an entirely different kettle of fish to have that forced on you if you are a local small business with no say whatsoever in the majority say so of the creditors as a whole...............and what about the "4p" owed to Swindon Town? How the hell did that come about and how long will they have to wait for their money?

............and yes, Brent HAS got that land behind the main stand. Of course he has, it's all he was ever interested in, why ever else would he be interested in an entity or sport he confesses to knowing nothing about?

I cannot believe the stupidity and naivety of those who have not picked up on this. I cannot believe the gullibility of those who cannot see why he has made the fans' "shop steward" his club president ~ it's the oldest management trick in the book .......get the union man on your side by making him "one of yours". Brent will just run the football club on a shoe string until he manages to dispose of it and then bugger off into the sunset with a hotel built on that piece of land

I agree with you here, James Brent has no interest in the football side of the business, and the fact that he has acquired a valuable piece of land with large development potential at the expense of the tax payers demonstrates his character. The actual stadium has little value yet Brent forced them into a position that they had to accept the deal. The council paid £1.6 million for the stadium and Brent initially has paid just £700k for the valuable part of the freehold. People who believe that he cares for the club and stepped in to save a valuable community asset need a reality check. This is a ruthless business man who wants a return on his investment and so far its going to plan. His polite and approachable manner have fooled many of the fan base and the longer this goes on the easier it will be for him to neglect the football club and build a hotel or similar developments on the land he now owns.

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

I left the Board in July 2007. The 2006-7 accounts show that we made a healthy profit based on a self-imposed wage cap of 65% of turnover.

I think everyone wishes Damon all the best, he's been fantastic this past year.

I would say though that the figures in the May 2007 accounts filed at CH showed a loss of £714,000, compared to a loss of £315,000 in 2006. The 65% is spot on; salaries £5.3M against turnover £8.1M.

The real damage was of course done after Damon left, as salaries rose to 74% of turnover in 2008 (£6.4M of £8.7M) and 85% in 2009 (£7.5M of £8.7M). While the 2008 accounts showed a profit of £1M, that was almost certainly thanks to the fire sale of players including SEB, Buzsaky, Gosling, Halmosi and Norris. Without the sales, the club would have shown a pretty large loss that year. In 2009, without similar sales, the reported loss was £2.9M. The rest is history (but history not filed at CH).

Mutley-Green wrote:

merse wrote:

Mutley-Green wrote:

With the countless other unsecured creditors paid just 0.7p in the £

I understood it to be 0.077pence in the pound ~ but either way it is a hell of a difference to the actual amount owed. It's one thing to be a major corporation accepting that at a creditors' meeting but an entirely different kettle of fish to have that forced on you if you are a local small business with no say whatsoever in the majority say so of the creditors as a whole...............and what about the "4p" owed to Swindon Town? How the hell did that come about and how long will they have to wait for their money?

............and yes, Brent HAS got that land behind the main stand. Of course he has, it's all he was ever interested in, why ever else would he be interested in an entity or sport he confesses to knowing nothing about?

I cannot believe the stupidity and naivety of those who have not picked up on this. I cannot believe the gullibility of those who cannot see why he has made the fans' "shop steward" his club president ~ it's the oldest management trick in the book .......get the union man on your side by making him "one of yours". Brent will just run the football club on a shoe string until he manages to dispose of it and then bugger off into the sunset with a hotel built on that piece of land

I agree with you here, James Brent has no interest in the football side of the business, and the fact that he has acquired a valuable piece of land with large development potential at the expense of the tax payers demonstrates his character. The actual stadium has little value yet Brent forced them into a position that they had to accept the deal. The council paid £1.6 million for the stadium and Brent initially has paid just £700k for the valuable part of the freehold. People who believe that he cares for the club and stepped in to save a valuable community asset need a reality check. This is a ruthless business man who wants a return on his investment and so far its going to plan. His polite and approachable manner have fooled many of the fan base and the longer this goes on the easier it will be for him to neglect the football club and build a hotel or similar developments on the land he now owns.

Careful Mutley-Green, with common-sense posting like that, you'll soon be banned from Pasoti/a coward, freak or weirdo/have twatter feeds dedicated to you from "real" fans

Tim Chown wrote:

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

I left the Board in July 2007. The 2006-7 accounts show that we made a healthy profit based on a self-imposed wage cap of 65% of turnover.

I think everyone wishes Damon all the best, he's been fantastic this past year.

I would say though that the figures in the May 2007 accounts filed at CH showed a loss of £714,000, compared to a loss of £315,000 in 2006. The 65% is spot on; salaries £5.3M against turnover £8.1M.

The real damage was of course done after Damon left, as salaries rose to 74% of turnover in 2008 (£6.4M of £8.7M) and 85% in 2009 (£7.5M of £8.7M). While the 2008 accounts showed a profit of £1M, that was almost certainly thanks to the fire sale of players including SEB, Buzsaky, Gosling, Halmosi and Norris. Without the sales, the club would have shown a pretty large loss that year. In 2009, without similar sales, the reported loss was £2.9M. The rest is history (but history not filed at CH).

I would say that the argument that the club "would have shown a pretty large loss" in 2009 is very debatable indeed,bearing in mind that a serious promotion challenge would have been made had the players mentioned been retained and ,as in any successful Argyle season,gates and therefore income would have crescendoed hugely after xmas.

That we'll never know. It was probably the single best chance in our history to reach the Premier League. And of course Holloway did just that with Blackpool soon after.

What I meant was that if you remove the income from player sales we would have shown a similar scale of loss to 2009. Had the players not been sold, and we'd had several HP sell-out crowds, and playoff money, then it's quite feasible we could have broken even. Obviously much better than that with promotion. A few "ifs" in there though.

There's been plenty of times in the past when I've questioned Damon's actions, on this occassion though I think Damon's conducted himself well despite a few difficult questions and for that I think the respect is growing, maybe the President could gain a few tips.

Tim Chown wrote:

That we'll never know. It was probably the single best chance in our history to reach the Premier League. And of course Holloway did just that with Blackpool soon after.

What I meant was that if you remove the income from player sales we would have shown a similar scale of loss to 2009. Had the players not been sold, and we'd had several HP sell-out crowds, and playoff money, then it's quite feasible we could have broken even. Obviously much better than that with promotion. A few "ifs" in there though.

At least we would have tried.

The reality is that for a club like Argyle there has to be speculation to accumulate. We don't have a 20k fanbase because we've never achieved top flight status.

Money was needed in the boardroom and Stapleton and co weren't prepared to sell or even share, for the sake of the club.

The club IS a sleeping giant. One day, someone with money and interest in football will realise that fact.

Even Brent;probably primed by PJ has recognised that if and when we get back to the 2nd tier, new owners with said money and desire would need to be sought out to complete the job. Then again, Brent will probably get greedy too. There's definitely something in the water.

Tim Chown wrote:

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

I left the Board in July 2007. The 2006-7 accounts show that we made a healthy profit based on a self-imposed wage cap of 65% of turnover.

I would say though that the figures in the May 2007 accounts filed at CH showed a loss of £714,000, compared to a loss of £315,000 in 2006. The 65% is spot on; salaries £5.3M against turnover £8.1M.

The real damage was of course done after Damon left, as salaries rose to 74% of turnover in 2008 (£6.4M of £8.7M) and 85% in 2009 (£7.5M of £8.7M).

Which shows EXACTLY why it would be foolish (and certainly won't happen under Brent) for any club to willfully exceed the salary cap..........figures of 74% and 85% are pure madness and obviously not either sustainable or justifiable.

To do that is merely chasing a dream and speculation, to adhere to the cap is to run the business in the responsible manner a board of directors is required to do by company law in the interests of the shareholding at large.

As one who lost over £35,000 after agreeing to be a guarantor for someone who made not one single payment to the bank on receipt of the loan, preferring to abscond with their loot instead; and had to sell my sole property and see my two year old marriage break up as a result of the fall out; I sympathise with Damon and only hope he has managed to adopt the same laissez faire attitude that I did in that "it is only money" and a belief that "what goes round, comes round"

I ended up having fate give me three wonderful children after all that, which would certainly never have happened had that catastrophy not happened to me at the time, but live every day as if it is your last Damon ~ you never know where the next piece of shit to hit you might come from.

Indeed. My current employer turns over maybe £300M and has about 58% salary costs. The 55% rule is very prudent.

Calculated gambles/ risks can be made with private money. If a Russian billionaire bought Argyle he would spend to achieve his goal of PL football. It would be the same if a consortium 'invested' at a much smaller level or the club was sold to more wealthy new owners. The money would be at risk if promotion was not achieved but that is life.

We went bust without even going for it ffs !

Have to admit that I didn't keep up with all the wheelings and dealings surrounding Ridsdale/Heaney et al, and at the time I thought Mr. Brent was a saviour. However, reading more and more of the history of it all I have come to the conclusion that the Saviour is in it for the money. Mr. Merse is correct, Mr. Brent will ride off into the sunset with a healthy profit, and unlike westerns I don't thing he's the man with the white hat. If relegated, attendances will plummet to about 2K maximum, probably less. Home Park will be a morgue. I will be heartbroken watching the team I have supported for over 60 years fall apart. it was tough have the p**s taken for being a Pilgrim when in the RAF for 25 years, and the same when working with other Brits at NATO. All for nothing.

Merv Plummer

pafcineurope wrote:

Have to admit that I didn't keep up with all the wheelings and dealings surrounding Ridsdale/Heaney et al, and at the time I thought Mr. Brent was a saviour. However, reading more and more of the history of it all I have come to the conclusion that the Saviour is in it for the money. Mr. Merse is correct, Mr. Brent will ride off into the sunset with a healthy profit, and unlike westerns I don't thing he's the man with the white hat. If relegated, attendances will plummet to about 2K maximum, probably less. Home Park will be a morgue. I will be heartbroken watching the team I have supported for over 60 years fall apart. it was tough have the p**s taken for being a Pilgrim when in the RAF for 25 years, and the same when working with other Brits at NATO. All for nothing.

Merv Plummer

The thing is Merv, all we try to do on here is ask the questions, but they go unanswered. If there is nothing to hide then be more transparent about it Mr Brent. If everything is fine and dandy then show everyone. These type of questions are not welcomed on Pasoti usually, and either lead to you being banned or the posts removed or moved to Junior Pasoti as some kind of punishment.

The person who was at the forefront of asking these awkward questions last year is now the Club President and won't engage with anyone who wants to ask questions, and is now quite happy for these kind of questions to be left unanswered. It's a total change of tack from a man who's day job is to ask awkward questions of the bosses, but he now protects the bosses with fervour.

Very strange indeed!

Linked to "We Need a Striker"......

Look a the BBC League 2 page - can'tpost the URL 'cos I'm new (resurrected) - but there seems to be a lot of activity going on, unfortunately no-one coming our way!! Time is running out and so are our options/choices.

Maybe with posts as "pafcinbrussels", before I quit and returned as present, I had my green tints on. I have an awful feeling we (supporters) have been had again. With relegation there will be only 1 winner and his name is Brent.


Merv Plummer

But the dynamic duo told everyone that 'he gets it'.

A lot of the transfers happen at the last minute as players pitch for the best offer available.

I think the option for loan players continues past the end of Jan transfer window.

I would think it unlikely any signing would be given more than a contract to the end of the season anyway.

'Emergency' loans start a week after the transfer window closes doesn't it?

Agree Tim, everyone will be holding out for the best possible deals. We would be daft to offer anything past the end of the season and any potential signing would be daft to take it, knowing that instead of AFC Wimbledon, they could be playing Ebbsfleet next season.