Man United - End of an era?

Dane. wrote:

The away support are the die hard ones, Still singing moyes name, infact one of my facebook friends who travels home and away including in Europe had a status up tonight suggesting any fan that isn't behind the manager is not a real fan

I've always seen people who have no geographical, residential or family history tied to a city (e.g. Manchester) who simply 'adopt' United (for example) as their team, as mind numbingly weak. It's irrelevant if they make the pilgrimage to Old Trafford every other week or not, in my eyes they are every bit as plastic as the ones who sit in their armchairs knocking one out to MUTV.

Just saying, like.

Czarcasm wrote:

Dane. wrote:

The away support are the die hard ones, Still singing moyes name, infact one of my facebook friends who travels home and away including in Europe had a status up tonight suggesting any fan that isn't behind the manager is not a real fan

I've always seen people who have no geographical, residential or family history tied to a city (e.g. Manchester) who simply 'adopt' United (for example) as their team, as mind numbingly weak. It's irrelevant if they make the pilgrimage to Old Trafford every other week or not, in my eyes they are every bit as plastic as the ones who sit in their armchairs knocking one out to MUTV.

Just saying, like.

It depends how much you value your time or money I guess

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/football/bucs/blame-for-bucs-mess-starts-with-glazers/2159038

"Then transfer money from the Manchester United bank account into the Bucs' account..."

I'm rather glad the Glazers don't own Argyle (look at the stats for Tampa Bay at the end of the article!).

Sir Frank trying to catch up on plans laid even before Brent owned the club. Didn't talk of Harper's Park, the cricket pitch, the council depot etc have any effect on you whatsoever ? There was a postponement due to education budgets being frozen, you just don't believe what is put in front of you. I tried my best but you just weren't listening.

This is different to the HHP thing. Why do you think some are concerned now what is going on to the East of HHP ? I despair. Still, as long as the footy doesn't suffer, eh ?
Still no sign of the Nicholsons. They won't ever have the cheek to raise their heads again.

I've just read the above post twice and I haven't even the vaguest inkling of what it has to do with anything under discussion here.

I assume "East of HHP" must refer to Manchester only because the thread is entitled "Man United - End of an Era" but it probably does not.

Baffled.

You've always been baffled Sir Frank.
I'm just mocking your comments regarding the Glazers at Manchester, when Argyle have an owner who is no better. A slight diversion, but why not, this isn't Pasoti.

I was obviously being far too subtle.

I don't disagree that there's strong similarities. The scale is different but the mindset is identical.

And both are loading serious debt onto their clubs.

Which appears to be similar to what the Glazers have done in Tampa so, back to the "end of an era" theme, look at the progress Tampa have (not) made under the Glazers. Man Utd's decline may only just be beginning and will accelarate if the Glazers start using (even more of) United's cash to subsidise the Buccaneers and we can only speculate as to the long term effects for Argyle.

The probable demise of Man Utd is down to the quality of the players. They are not of the required standard. Certainly not when compared to their neighbours. Ferguson knew that and so got out. It is a poisoned chalice.
This is nothing to do with the Glazers although it will be come the end.

Of course, this demise raises the whole question of whether Ferguson was just riding the wave of a golden generation. One of his lucky finds is still there.
He obviously isn't a bad man manager, but I wonder if he is the genius some think.
In the end, football is about the best players, and only Clough in my mind had an ability to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear as the likes of McGovern admitted. I can't imagine Ferguson's Manchester beating the old Liverpool teams to the title very often, and also Liverpool won the top European thing during his Manchester tenure more than he did, with just two players of class, and the ghost of Hillsborough and Heysel to battle with.

Halfway through the window. Have United signed anyone yet ?

Fergies genius was in keeping it going. He made his own luck.
I'm not sure there's a place for sows ears in today's game. Deficiencies are exposed nowadays whereas that wasn't the case in Clough's time, undoubted genius though he was.
And I would say that there is nothing to choose between Liverpool and United. Both produced two or three great teams.

Yep. If anything, I think it is the energy of the club that tips the balance. there's no doubt that the new Premiership suited Manchester down to the ground and they just exploded into a global brand. It's an energy thing. Can't see the Moyse brand doing anything. It's too banal.

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

The probable demise of Man Utd is down to the quality of the players. They are not of the required standard. Certainly not when compared to their neighbours. Ferguson knew that and so got out. It is a poisoned chalice.
This is nothing to do with the Glazers although it will be come the end.

I'm sure you are right and the $1bn that the Glazers have taken out of the club, so far, has in no way affected the quality or quantity of the players available to the manager.

Winter Green wrote:

Of course, this demise raises the whole question of whether Ferguson was just riding the wave of a golden generation. One of his lucky finds is still there.
He obviously isn't a bad man manager, but I wonder if he is the genius some think.
In the end, football is about the best players, and only Clough in my mind had an ability to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear as the likes of McGovern admitted. I can't imagine Ferguson's Manchester beating the old Liverpool teams to the title very often, and also Liverpool won the top European thing during his Manchester tenure more than he did, with just two players of class, and the ghost of Hillsborough and Heysel to battle with.

In Ferguson's defence I reckon he made a silk purse out of a sows ear at Aberdeen taking a Scottish provincial side with gates similar to Argyle's to success in Europe and breaking the Celtic/Rangers stranglehold for several seasons to earn himself the United job. Not only did he finally rejuvenate United as the leading club after 25 years in the doldrums where so many others had failed but he was able to move with the times and adapt to the different style of management needed to manage multi millionaire players with agents.
Liverpool did not win the European thing more than United during his tenure. Ferguson took the United job in 1986 and Liverpool's sole success thereafter was in 2005. Also of course winning the Champion's league is a much tougher task than winning the old European Cup with so many leading teams in the competition which would seem to be borne out by the fact no side has managed to win it two years in succession, whereas it was quite common for teams to win the old European Cup 2 or 3 times on the trot. I reckon the better teams of Ferguson's 27 year reign would have been well capable of beating the old Liverpool as well because nowadays more than in the past there is a bigger concentration of top world players at the leading clubs. As for Giggs being a lucky find it was Ferguson who transformed the club from the youth set up to the first team to find gems like Giggs by putting in place the scouting and coaching to find and develop young players who were invariably being lost to other clubs before his arrival.

Czarcasm wrote:

Halfway through the window. Have United signed anyone yet ?

Stand by

ferguson was on more money at Aberdeen than Atkinson was at man utd.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

The probable demise of Man Utd is down to the quality of the players. They are not of the required standard. Certainly not when compared to their neighbours. Ferguson knew that and so got out. It is a poisoned chalice.
This is nothing to do with the Glazers although it will be come the end.

I'm sure you are right and the $1bn that the Glazers have taken out of the club, so far, has in no way affected the quality or quantity of the players available to the manager.

The 1 billion figure is going to be hit by 2016, although the point does still stand. I did hear that Fergie was going to retire the year City won the league but obviously couldnt go out like that, signed Van Persie a player with a known injury history and chucked whatever money rooneys agents were asking for and both gambles paid off.

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

The probable demise of Man Utd is down to the quality of the players. They are not of the required standard. Certainly not when compared to their neighbours. Ferguson knew that and so got out. It is a poisoned chalice.
This is nothing to do with the Glazers although it will be come the end.

Might have made sense if Ferguson hadn't won the league by 11 points with the exact same squad before. Got out because they weren't good enough?   They looked pretty good enough under him.

Hugh Watt wrote:

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

The probable demise of Man Utd is down to the quality of the players. They are not of the required standard. Certainly not when compared to their neighbours. Ferguson knew that and so got out. It is a poisoned chalice.
This is nothing to do with the Glazers although it will be come the end.

I'm sure you are right and the $1bn that the Glazers have taken out of the club, so far, has in no way affected the quality or quantity of the players available to the manager.

The 1 billion figure is going to be hit by 2016, although the point does still stand. I did hear that Fergie was going to retire the year City won the league but obviously couldnt go out like that, signed Van Persie a player with a known injury history and chucked whatever money rooneys agents were asking for and both gambles paid off.

Do you not reckon Fergie retired because he is a 72 year old man, and managing one of the biggest clubs in the world is pretty stressful?
(Moyes makes it look stressful any way.   ). Stressful for anyone, let alone an OAP with grandchildren and old biddy wife (and who no doubt has been nagged constantly to take a step back and put his feet up).

ejh wrote:

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

The probable demise of Man Utd is down to the quality of the players. They are not of the required standard. Certainly not when compared to their neighbours. Ferguson knew that and so got out. It is a poisoned chalice.
This is nothing to do with the Glazers although it will be come the end.

Might have made sense if Ferguson hadn't won the league by 11 points with the exact same squad before. Got out because they weren't good enough?    They looked pretty good enough under him.

That said more about the other teams last season than United. The fact is they clicked into gear only when Scholes came out of retirement. I would guess he's irreplaceable. Also Van Persie was on fire. I would say, of the team that played yesterday, not one player would get in Man City's side. Or Chelsea's for that matter.

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

ejh wrote:

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

The probable demise of Man Utd is down to the quality of the players. They are not of the required standard. Certainly not when compared to their neighbours. Ferguson knew that and so got out. It is a poisoned chalice.
This is nothing to do with the Glazers although it will be come the end.

Might have made sense if Ferguson hadn't won the league by 11 points with the exact same squad before. Got out because they weren't good enough?    They looked pretty good enough under him.

That said more about the other teams last season than United. The fact is they clicked into gear only when Scholes came out of retirement. I would guess he's irreplaceable. Also Van Persie was on fire. I would say, of the team that played yesterday, not one player would get in Man City's side. Or Chelsea's for that matter.

Spot on Rollo, I'm afraid poor ol' ejh has a pretty firm grip on the clueless button, Fergie took a flyer last season in a desperate attempt to go out on the crest, he knew full well the quality in his squad was about to hit the afternoon nap brigade, the obvious exceptions being Shrek and RVP who have not appeared for Moyes yet. In the bank he had the waiter at Chelski and the terminally incompetent Mancini at Citeh.

This time out he has Moo and the Pelican in the money seats, the Arse finally making the cut with Everton, Spurs and the Poo squeezing the big boys, in the absence of Shrek and RVP crawling out from under their respective rocks Fergie would have struggled big time just the same.

ps. I would take De Gea over Cech or Hart, Evra over Azpiwhatever and Carrick over Luiz.

Is this the same 'Terminally incompetent' Mancini who reversed a 9 point deficit to steal a title from Fergie, also by beating Utd in a title showdown? The same guy who has won a haul of the most prestigious titles in Europe?

What utter drivel.

And Fergie. He announced his retirement BEFORE Arsenal signed Ozil, BEFORE Mourinho was back at Chelsea, BEFORE Spurs had £100m to spend, and before Mancini had left City - but he could see the writing on the wall. There was no chance he could finish in the top 4 with such a hapless bunch like Van Persie, Rooney, Hernandez, Nani, Valencia, Ashley Young, Kagawa, Carrick, Jones, Vidic, Ferdinand, Evra, Rafael and De Gea. I mean he had to get out quick.

And let's also forget Fergie might not have signed Fellaini, instead of looking for top prospects like De Gea and Kagawa, he almost certainly would put all his money into signing an agricultural dirty elbowing fecker in centre midfield and forgotten how he signed,  developed and nurtured players like Roy Keane and Paul Scholes.

Similarly Sir Alex Ferguson would not have made the Bale deal happen, the Ozil deal, the Eriksen deal, the Sneijder, and the Spanish one - and any other deals that Moyes monumentally cocked up. He didn't have the gravitas to make a big deal happen, to seduce his rivals stars, like RVP and Cantona.

With regards to Man United going from dominant champions to Europa league on Channel 5, the writing was clearly on the wall. And it has absolutely nothng to do with the fact that David Moyes is in way over his head trying to manage this globally elite football club, in terms of transfers, tactics and the mental conditioning required to compete for silverware on four different fronts, and It is just a coincidence he doesn't have the experience or credentials to do it when almost all of his rivals do.

ejh wrote:

Is this the same 'Terminally incompetent' Mancini who reversed a 9 point deficit to steal a title from Fergie, also by beating Utd in a title showdown? The same guy who has won a haul of the most prestigious titles in Europe?

Uh duh!

Mancini won the EPL in the last minute of the last game from some of the most inept opposition since its inception with the most expensively assembled team in the history of footy in this country, he won few jugs in Italy with one of the biggest clubs in the world yet has been consistently unable to put up any showing at all in the real deal of the Chumps League, it was particularly notable that Inter won the biggy the season after his services were dispensed with while Citeh are looking to be right in the frame for everything as soon as the wholly inadequate jerk is out the door.

The dumb ass tosser had Citeh playing dull dull defensive nonsense while the Pelican has got over a hundred goals out of basically the same team in just over half a season, how bright was that?

Lord Tisdale wrote:

ejh wrote:

Is this the same 'Terminally incompetent' Mancini who reversed a 9 point deficit to steal a title from Fergie, also by beating Utd in a title showdown? The same guy who has won a haul of the most prestigious titles in Europe?

Uh duh!

Mancini won the EPL in the last minute of the last game from some of the most inept opposition since its inception with the most expensively assembled team in the history of footy in this country, he won few jugs in Italy with one of the biggest clubs in the world yet has been consistently unable to put up any showing at all in the real deal of the Chumps League, it was particularly notable that Inter won the biggy the season after his services were dispensed with while Citeh are looking to be right in the frame for everything as soon as the wholly inadequate jerk is out the door.

The dumb ass tosser had Citeh playing dull dull defensive nonsense while the Pelican has got over a hundred goals out of basically the same team in just over half a season, how bright was that?

Mancini has won 14 trophies and is younger than David Moyes. How many trophies have you and David Moyes won between you?

Mancini struggled in the second season at Man City because he wasn't really given much in the transfer window. He brought in Scott Sinclair and Jack Rodwell, who are nowhere near the quality to be pushing City's first teamers out. Meanwhile Pellegrini has brought in one of the biggest scoring strikers in Europe (Negredo), one of the best wingers in world football (Jesus Navas), a dynamic centre mid in Fernandinho and a solid and experienced defender in Demechelis.

After last season started, Mancini made it clear he was unhappy with all the transfer cock ups that summer. Whilst Fergie nabbed RVP, Mancini got left with Scott Sinclair and Jack Rodwell. Van Persie proved to be the deciding factor in that title race - 30-40 goals in a season tend to win a lot of games. And no Pellegrini does not have 'basically the same team' - he has Jesus Navas instead of Scott Sinclair/James Milner, Fernandinho instead of Gareth Barry, and Alvaro Negredo instead of Tevez who decided to go AWOL for 4 months. Not to mention a bit of experience in Demechelis, instead of needing to rely on Nastasic when Kompany is injured, as he was a great deal of last season. Pellegrini was well and truly financially backed when he came in - unlike Mancini, who the owners basically presumed had plenty available to win another title, not realising the importance of that Van Persie transfer.

A number of factors came to a head last season for Mancini, but he is clearly no mug as a manager. You seem to think these big clubs run themselves, and 3 consecutive titles win themselves. Just check out where the illustrious Manchester United are this season and where Inter Milan are - that is 7th and 5th. Mancini took that Inter side who finished 3rd and won three consecutive titles and two cups with them. He took Man City from 5th to winning the league and an FA Cup. Clearly a manager who has been and done it, unlike David Moyes - instead of judging these managers by their last season, judge them by their careers. The simple fact is Moyes doesn't know what he is doing running a big club, and has no credentials for fixing the mess he is in. Mancini on the other hand has delivered success at at least two massive (but struggling) clubs.

ejh wrote:

Mancini has won 14 trophies and is younger than David Moyes. How many trophies have you and David Moyes won between you?.

Uh duh!

I have won exactly as many major European titles as Mancini has as a manger.

ps. I think Moyes is a donkey as well, this is clearly demonstrated by the improvement in Everton and the total lack of Martinez constantly bitching about a lack of money. The sooner all these dour Scots wankers are replaced the better I shall be pleased.