The seeds of 'real fan' engagement.

http://www.pasoti.co.uk/talk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=60171

Re name the title Cp,ers get their feet under the top table. God it's depressing reading all that, what amuses me when I read back over threads from that time is that I was banned for being outspoken yet when you read the threads back I actually wasn't even there, he's like Paul Daniels that Ian Newell is.

Iggy wrote:

he's like Paul Daniels that Ian Newell is.

What, needs to pay for a shag with anything that doesn't need a bag over its head?

That's a great thread to look back on now and see how many idiots blindly follow the former cp's and have stayed loyal to them instead of supporting the AFT.

Webb, Newell, Postey, Mark all had roles to play in troubled times and did well. Unfortunately these people think they have a God given right to dictate matters now when they were so supportive of the Trust such a short time ago.

And when did people's faith in the Trust start to waiver? When half the feckin cp'ers took part in the deepthroat, Windsor Boy, Dogger, Deadly Lampshade et al accounts with some bullshit excuse about their mate Wozzer being undermined.

How many posters on that thread who were so supportive of the AFT are now dead set against it, under another bullshit umbrella of saying Andy Symons is the reason they've gone off the Trust?

There are a small core of "superfans" who are shown up for what they really are from that one thread alone. I expect Wozzer not getting his free lunch was the catalyst for his way wide of the mark paranoia about his former friends and Trust colleagues. Too many drinks I believe his stated excuse was at the time. When Newell was ready to drop him in the shit and reveal he was one deepthroater.

The non-political GT'S mouthpiece was also right behind the Trust back then so what's changed their minds so rapidly?

feckin disgrace the lot of them and they should read that and be embarrassed as feck. A few people raised concerns on that thread and were ridiculed by guess who? Wozzer, Webb, Newell, Postey and not surprisingly the greenest of green tints greengenes who knows exactly what has gone on to undermine the Trust lately but prefers to stick his head in the sand and concentrate on celebrating escaping relegation to non league by one point.

Big kudos to Grovehill who gets taunted mercilessly again there, knecht, who's annoyingly frequently correct about most things other than jazz and real ale, and John or Moist Von Lipwig who raises the initial concern.

No, no no the sheep cry, these people don't want to become the voice of Brent, they're just having a celebratory meal on Mr Brent for services rendered. I expect that lunch was where Brent sussed out the ones he needed onside with Newell and Webb, and which ones were a danger and had to be silenced at any cost.

I actually feel slightly nauseous reading some of the posts on there and knowing the shit some fans have gone through since then for simply caring and wanting to hold to account, which of course the PASB is pertaining to now but in reality is as much use as a perforated condom.

Hopefully a few wankers will take five minutes to read that thread and still be able to look at themselves in the mirror without feeling like a cnut.

Oh how they laughed at Grovehill lol. Not feckin laughing now unless 21st in division 4 is reason to celebrate.

Chris Webb the fans representative? Don't make me feckin laugh.

clubs a joke mate. only a small few have realised it so far...............

It's important to separate individuals that made up the CPers. IJN, Pres, IDL and Jones were on it but in my opinion the driving force behind it was Graham Clark and you can't say he isn't still fighting the fight - also Mark from the GTs, who by the way are still close to the Trust and myself all played a part.

Yes certain people have gone one way and others another but to group us all in one lump is somewhat unfair.

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

It's important to separate individuals that made up the CPers. IJN, Pres, IDL and Jones were on it but in my opinion the driving force behind it was Graham Clark and you can't say he isn't still fighting the fight - also Mark from the GTs, who by the way are still close to the Trust and myself all played a part.

Yes certain people have gone one way and others another but to group us all in one lump is somewhat unfair.

Of course Damon. It was lazy of me to lump them all in together. What a thread though with hindsight!

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

It's important to separate individuals that made up the CPers. IJN, Pres, IDL and Jones were on it but in my opinion the driving force behind it was Graham Clark and you can't say he isn't still fighting the fight - also Mark from the GTs, who by the way are still close to the Trust and myself all played a part.

Yes certain people have gone one way and others another but to group us all in one lump is somewhat unfair.

Is that the same Mark that saw the plans and had input along with Ian and another (probs chris) for the stand akkeron is trying to force on us?

AoM - Mark went to three meetings - each time as a rep of the GTs - to give input to the requirements of the GTs - it looks like no-one took any notice of him! I can also confirm that he did not see the published plans before we all did.

Fan Fests are hugely popular.Sell outs every home match. They must make quite a few bob for the club.However they dont get a mention in the plans either from Akkeron or the AFT.Damon any info,from a PASB perspective.

I can't imagine they make much money at all. A couple of hundred fans at a fiver for a pint and pasty .... plus a couple of extra pints purchased every fortnight ? Hardly a money spinner. A Mutley pub will make more money in an hour at the weekend with no sign of the big society. Probably more important in a network sort of way, although it might well have become a ghetto of regulars. But then that's ok for those that like that sort of thing, Argyle are a club after all.

greensleeves wrote:

Fan Fests are hugely popular.Sell outs every home match. They must make quite a few bob for the club.However they dont get a mention in the plans either from Akkeron or the AFT.Damon any info,from a PASB perspective.

The PASB hasn't questioned either the club or the WG on behalf of the GTs - I am sure the GTs are quite capable of battling their own corner!!

worried of penzance wrote:

I can't imagine they make much money at all. A couple of hundred fans at a fiver for a pint and pasty .... plus a couple of extra pints purchased every fortnight ? Hardly a money spinner. A Mutley pub will make more money in an hour at the weekend with no sign of the big society. Probably more important in a network sort of way, although it might well have become a ghetto of regulars. But then that's ok for those that like that sort of thing, Argyle are a club after all.

It still makes a bit and if its popular with punters then i let it be.

damon if GT are in their own words non political and not wanting positions on pasb or even on forums then why was mark even asked to represent them at these viewings? Surely GT should have said no and insisted either the trust and/or PASB reps go instead.

WOP...au contraire WOP au contraire.Bay window used to be the place to be seen pre match ...now not a whimper.Same for the Hyde Park which used to be a focal point with fans spilling out everywhere, again not a whimper.Same gloes for the Cherry Tree.Everybody is heading for the Fans Fests it seems.Well at least 250 people which any pub in the vicinity of HP would be pleased to see coming through its doors,dont know of any Mutley pubs doing that sort of trade on a Saturday lunchtime.The beer is donated and pasties give a good discount,so along with the bar sales,as most have a second or third pint throughout the two hours,it is in my view a great money spinner. Much much more than a couple of extra pints,more like 200 .Fair play to the GT's,and now there's post match entertainment as well with Black Jack Davey who is very very good.The football may not be up to much,but the pre match and post match entertainment is top drawer.

JB offered the GTs the opportunity to tell them what they would like to see incorporated in the new stand for fanfests etc. Why wouldn't they want to tell whoever was at that meeting face to face? What has that got to do with politics? At the end of the day there has been no provision at all.

Indeed Greensleeves - I know of people who go to the fanfests and then don't go to the match!!!

Sorry if this has already been answered but has anywhere been sorted out for the fanfests in Akkeron's plans?

I thought the deal was they were going to have to pay for a property on club ground to keep it going there, but I haven't been keeping up to date.

Also with the Far Post club going is there only going to be small bar areas dotted around the ground now?

Greensleeves, I have never given the fan fests a bad thought for those that like them. I have always thought Argyle missed a trick with the lunchtime pre match tipple for the oiks... and had a smirk when Ridders was trying to knock it on the head. I think you'll find most posters on here think the same, even if it isn't everyone's cup of tea.

I had always assumed the pints and pasties, like the labour, were largely donated, but my point still remains. I have always argued with the likes of Sir Frankie that in money terms the trailing of the value of extra revenue through grandstand activities at this club will never make a lot of difference to the playing budget when compared to attendance figures and tv revenue. Their value is in esprit de corps, but that's ok. The Far Post has been open most days for decades.

My worry is quite simple, that under a GT and fan fest umbrella, a large full time "sports bar" with the cultural issues associated with such bars, plants itself in the middle of a civic park. Today I have spent some time in the lovingly and beautifully upgraded Devonport Park. What a pleasure and what a popular place it has become. I hope Central Park goes down a similar route rather than the Warner village crap. I think we've all seen enough of the brave new Blairite pavement culture interpreted by Plymouth... look at Mutley and North Hill.

To just go off on a bit of a tangent here, where did all the grants and funding come from to spruce up Devonport Park? If I recall there was a huge amount spent on its regeneration.

WOP..At most football clubs,if not all, revenue is a 24/7 thing,no matter whether it comes from weddings,parties,conferences,or just a fans fest.It all contributes to the grand scale of things.Fans may enjoy the experience of the Fan Fests,and it would seem by the attendances that they do,and then they decide to hold a wedding reception etc etc,and then things mushroom.Of course,TV revenue counts as do match day attendances,but every revenue stream is vital when you are in league division 2.So unlike you I think that every penny counts.I dont think a full time "sports bar" is that obtrusive under the current plans.In fact it will be a haven for those that like a pre match/post match pint.I dont know if you have ever been to St. James Park, Newcastle but their Shearer's bar is a bit of a goldmine.

Business plans always look fine prior to the development ... who can ever forget the millennium dome sales forecast... bore no reality to ..... well...... reality.

I don't have a problem with match day stuff at Higher Home Parkr, that's part of having a football club.. I don't want some Wesleyan puritanical backwater. I just don't want to see a mini "24/7" Barbican developing in the park, and I'm sure the council don't want it either.
I know Plymouth, I know it well. it doesn't have a good record with this sort of thing. If only it did. I don't detect a market for what Brent is thinking of at HHP, which might lead to changes of use shortly down the line. I really hope I'm wrong.

As far as I am aware nothing has been sorted for FFs yet.

There is a 'members bar' in the plans - sort of updated, smarter Far Post.

WoP - I agree about Devonport Park - it is 2 mins walk from where I live and it is a wonderful place for all ages - often bike ride there with my 10 year old. The Akkeron plans are a million miles away from that.

Damon...Central Park is a big place.From Argyle down to the railway station and from Milehouse junction down to Barn Park is just an undeveloped wasteland.and has been for years and years.There's no flower beds/duck ponds/yachting pools/seating areas,areas of repose,nothing at all.To call it a park in my view is a misnomer.

Believe me Greensleeves I am no tree hugger. I understand that development has to occur to unlock the cash to build us a stand. Taking the strangulation of the club away from the argument I just don't get why so much has to be crammed into such a small space when all that 'undeveloped wasteland' is there.

If it is built the Cinema and Ice Rink will both be a flop judging on past form. Vu or whatever it is called now is struggling.

Well, now we're getting to it greensleeves. I AM proudly a tree hugger, I DO have an allotment in the park, I have ALWAYS valued non concreted open space in a city.
To call an empty park wasteland is to not understand what concrete clear space is all about, especially in the middle of a city full of traffic. Do you call Dartmoor a wasteland ? probably. One step down from the dog walker argument of the terminally frightened/disengaged of REAL unmanaged space. There's not a lot of it in the city, why ruin what is there ?
If you're that interested, get yourself up to Devonport Park and see a newly renovated park with the nuance changed from "wasteland" to invigorating green space, with next to no building but the odd sport and bandstand facility for the local population, and not a chain eaterie in sight.
Take a look at the big London parks, take a look at Victoria Park in Bath and understand that parks do not need building all over to be a wonderful asset within the city.
And yes, Pepsi, you're right. The cinema Warner village formula is so 90s and likely to flop. Then what happens ?
The cinema is the problem with the development, not necessarily the ice rink that seems to have attracted most of the ire of Argyle football fans. Too much "destination Plymouth" going on... and of course that is aimed at non residents by definition.