Brexit - Leave or Remain poll

From Franny's favourite rag. The scenario that seems to have completely passed by all the remainers.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Charlie Wood wrote:

From Franny's favourite rag. The scenario that seems to have completely passed by all the remainers.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Just read it Charlie.

Regarding the points raised in the article, what changes whether we remain or exit?

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

It is Nazi imagery. Period.

What's all this period stuff? can someone explain please.

Amsterdamage wrote:

Moist_Von_Lipwig wrote:

What makes me chuckle is the fact stated by the Breiters that we will be able to negotiate a new trade deal with the EU and many other countries.

Well, we will be able to negotiate "a" deal, but not one we will all necessarily like!

In every negoatiation, we will be negotiating with a weak (and the longer it goes on a more desparation like) hand.

Any negotiated deal with the EU will mean that we have to agree to all the rules we currently do and any new rules they come up with.

It won't be a "negotiation", it will be a take it or leave it deal! We will have to accept again what the Brexiters are against.

It will be a similar scenario with all other countries too. They will have the stronger negotiating hand.

The others don't need us as much as we need them, and they know it!

Anybody who thinks anything else is imo a fool.

You're over complicating business, politicians like to muddy the waters it suits their aims as pawns of big business.
I've been in business all my life only small beans compared to ICI but business non the less. It's easy. Do the French want to sell us cheese and wine? Yes then they have to take some product from us, if they don't then we make our own wine and or buy new new world wines. Cheese could probably be made over here and save our failing milk industry. We import more from Europe than we import that tips the scales massively in our favour in any trade deal.

So, you should know then that when you negotiate from a position of strength you more or less get what you want.

Tell me, what is so special about the Uk that should we leave, any deal will NOT contain:

- Free movement of EU citizens.

- Compliance with all EU regulations (which the UK will have no say in whatsoever).

- The requirement to make payments to the EU.

Please don't think that the UK is THAT important to the EU that we can demand our own terms!

Should we leave, it will probably be more like a messy divorce than an amicable separation.

Just a question for you Brexiters....

Is life in the EU really that bad that you would risk everything? And for what?

I really don't like to think about what kind of place The UK will turn into should Brexit win!

You happy with how the uk has turned out ?

Elias wrote:

You happy with how the uk has turned out ?

Well, as has been quoted on this thread, our economy is out out performing all other EU countries. Also, we are seen by others as a great example of a multi-cultural society. A lot of other countries (including Germany - believe it or not) have a lot of respect for us.

I think that the UK and its people are great. I think our values are great.

On the other hand, I think our politicians and greedy bankers are terrible.

IMO, just about all of the perceived problems in the UK are not caused by EU membership but the elected politicians and general greed.

For example, why haven't the UK goverment banned zero hour (and 15 minute) contracts? They do have the power to do it.

Fair points.

I note politicians wont have the 'cover' of blaming eu for barmy policies. They will be judged by being the failures we know them to be.

Elias wrote:

Fair points.

I note politicians wont have the 'cover' of blaming eu for barmy policies. They will be judged by being the failures we know them to be.

I agree...

Plus one more thing (people may agree this is a good thing or not).......

Quoted as EU law etc AND/BUT endorsed by the UK goverment....

Why can I legally still smoke in some German pubs?

Moist_Von_Lipwig wrote:

Amsterdamage wrote:

Moist_Von_Lipwig wrote:

What makes me chuckle is the fact stated by the Breiters that we will be able to negotiate a new trade deal with the EU and many other countries.

Well, we will be able to negotiate "a" deal, but not one we will all necessarily like!

In every negoatiation, we will be negotiating with a weak (and the longer it goes on a more desparation like) hand.

Any negotiated deal with the EU will mean that we have to agree to all the rules we currently do and any new rules they come up with.

It won't be a "negotiation", it will be a take it or leave it deal! We will have to accept again what the Brexiters are against.

It will be a similar scenario with all other countries too. They will have the stronger negotiating hand.

The others don't need us as much as we need them, and they know it!

Anybody who thinks anything else is imo a fool.

You're over complicating business, politicians like to muddy the waters it suits their aims as pawns of big business.
I've been in business all my life only small beans compared to ICI but business non the less. It's easy. Do the French want to sell us cheese and wine? Yes then they have to take some product from us, if they don't then we make our own wine and or buy new new world wines. Cheese could probably be made over here and save our failing milk industry. We import more from Europe than we import that tips the scales massively in our favour in any trade deal.

So, you should know then that when you negotiate from a position of strength you more or less get what you want.

Tell me, what is so special about the Uk that should we leave, any deal will NOT contain:

- Free movement of EU citizens.

- Compliance with all EU regulations (which the UK will have no say in whatsoever).

- The requirement to make payments to the EU.

Please don't think that the UK is THAT important to the EU that we can demand our own terms!

Should we leave, it will probably be more like a messy divorce than an amicable separation.

Just a question for you Brexiters....

Is life in the EU really that bad that you would risk everything? And for what?

I really don't like to think about what kind of place The UK will turn into should Brexit win!

Probably somewhere like Australia,Switzerland,Canada,Norway or one of those other non EU [or any other U] hellholes.

Greenskin wrote:

Moist_Von_Lipwig wrote:

Amsterdamage wrote:

Moist_Von_Lipwig wrote:

What makes me chuckle is the fact stated by the Breiters that we will be able to negotiate a new trade deal with the EU and many other countries.

Well, we will be able to negotiate "a" deal, but not one we will all necessarily like!

In every negoatiation, we will be negotiating with a weak (and the longer it goes on a more desparation like) hand.

Any negotiated deal with the EU will mean that we have to agree to all the rules we currently do and any new rules they come up with.

It won't be a "negotiation", it will be a take it or leave it deal! We will have to accept again what the Brexiters are against.

It will be a similar scenario with all other countries too. They will have the stronger negotiating hand.

The others don't need us as much as we need them, and they know it!

Anybody who thinks anything else is imo a fool.

You're over complicating business, politicians like to muddy the waters it suits their aims as pawns of big business.
I've been in business all my life only small beans compared to ICI but business non the less. It's easy. Do the French want to sell us cheese and wine? Yes then they have to take some product from us, if they don't then we make our own wine and or buy new new world wines. Cheese could probably be made over here and save our failing milk industry. We import more from Europe than we import that tips the scales massively in our favour in any trade deal.

So, you should know then that when you negotiate from a position of strength you more or less get what you want.

Tell me, what is so special about the Uk that should we leave, any deal will NOT contain:

- Free movement of EU citizens.

- Compliance with all EU regulations (which the UK will have no say in whatsoever).

- The requirement to make payments to the EU.

Please don't think that the UK is THAT important to the EU that we can demand our own terms!

Should we leave, it will probably be more like a messy divorce than an amicable separation.

Just a question for you Brexiters....

Is life in the EU really that bad that you would risk everything? And for what?

I really don't like to think about what kind of place The UK will turn into should Brexit win!

Probably somewhere like Australia,Switzerland,Canada,Norway or one of those other non EU [or any other U] hellholes.

Australia don't like the foreigners, Switzerland don't like the foreigners, Canada don't like the foreigners, Norway, I don't know.

I was thinking more about the society aspect rather than the economic bit.

No-one has made any significant argument as to why we should leave the EU.

I have a simple rule of thumb...If Farage wants it, it must be bad for the country.

PlymptonPilgrim wrote:

No-one has made any significant argument as to why we should leave the EU.

I have a simple rule of thumb...If Farage wants it, it must be bad for the country.

Me too PP. I wonder what his wife (and in-laws etc) and kids think about him.

I don't trust Johnson either.

You clearly are both content with Greek debt levels rising by £493 PER SECOND.

The EU is a failing concept with member countries requiring different measures and different interest rates. But they are all tied in by the European Central Bank who answers only to Germany.

This alone is enough for me to want out. Throw in sovereignty and immigration and your views just do not make sense.

Moist_Von_Lipwig wrote:

Elias wrote:

Fair points.

I note politicians wont have the 'cover' of blaming eu for barmy policies. They will be judged by being the failures we know them to be.

I agree...

Plus one more thing (people may agree this is a good thing or not).......

Quoted as EU law etc AND/BUT endorsed by the UK goverment....

Why can I legally still smoke in some German pubs?

I have no idea.

Funnily enough though I have a mate (a non-smoker who as far as I know has never smoked) who is something of an expert in "building health" by which I mean the health of buildings in terms of energy efficiency, ventilation, utilisation of resources both in their construction and maintenance etc and at one stage he was responsible for winning the University of Plymouth a very, very lucrative contract with Big Tobacco (I forget exactly which company) to assess the impact of smoking in bars.

Anyway the dangers of passive smoking to non-smokers in confined places is now well-established fact and this was leapt upon by the government of the time (which I seem to recall was Tony Blair's) as they legislated for a blanket ban on smoking in-doors etc which remains in place today and is unlikely, I'd've thought, to be repealed.

Anyway my buddy actually proved that as long as places where people smoked were adequately managed in terms of air-handling (i.e. were well-ventilated and/or had air-cleaning units along the lines of air-conditioning units) that passive smoking posed no danger whatsoever.

I'm pretty sure his research was published, peer-reviewed and everything but it was disregarded and once the smoking ban was in place Big Baccy gave up, the contract with the Uni expired and he moved on with his next project.

All of which has nothing to do with the EU at all.

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

You clearly are both content with Greek debt levels rising by £493 PER SECOND.

The EU is a failing concept with member countries requiring different measures and different interest rates. But they are all tied in by the European Central Bank who answers only to Germany.

This alone is enough for me to want out. Throw in sovereignty and immigration and your views just do not make sense.

How does what you say above affect the UK?

Facts please and not what a mate told you in the pub!

I'll have to say it again by the looks of it.

THE GREEK DEBT IS INCREASING BY £493 (€629) PER SECOND.

Greece has to default but Germany will not allow it as other countries will follow suit. Therefore we, the U.K, will be forced to do pay more.

Let's hope Sir Philip Green doesn't come calling for you to donate a £1000 towards the BHS Pension Fund.

You seem dopey enough to pay it.

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

I'll have to say it again by the looks of it.

THE GREEK DEBT IS INCREASING BY £493 (€629) PER SECOND.

Greece has to default but Germany will not allow it as other countries will follow suit. Therefore we, the U.K, will be forced to do pay more.

Let's hope Sir Philip Green doesn't come calling for you to donate a £1000 towards the BHS Pension Fund.

You seem dopey enough to pay it.

Read my links earlier. The UK doesn't have to pay anything! Please do some research!

If we stay in EU we'll lose the rebate won by Thatcher. The rebate has no basis in the treaties. It's only existence is in article 5 of Council Decision 2014/335/EU. This expires in 2021, so the rebate could be abolished entirely in the event of a vote to stay.

Should that happen, the the UK would leapfrog above France and become the second biggest net contributors to the EU.

Hugh Midde wrote:

If we stay in EU we'll lose the rebate won by Thatcher. The rebate has no basis in the treaties. It's only existence is in article 5 of Council Decision 2014/335/EU. This expires in 2021, so the rebate could be abolished entirely in the event of a vote to stay.

Should that happen, the the UK would leapfrog above France and become the second biggest net contributors to the EU.

OH MY GOD!!!!!!

So what? That would strenghten our hand!

And if we leave the EU?

Moist_Von_Lipwig wrote:

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

I'll have to say it again by the looks of it.

THE GREEK DEBT IS INCREASING BY £493 (€629) PER SECOND.

Greece has to default but Germany will not allow it as other countries will follow suit. Therefore we, the U.K, will be forced to do pay more.

Let's hope Sir Philip Green doesn't come calling for you to donate a £1000 towards the BHS Pension Fund.

You seem dopey enough to pay it.

Read my links earlier. The UK doesn't have to pay anything! Please do some research!

Cameron stated that a deal struck in 2010 should protect the UK from future eurozone bailouts. However, EU officials said the the European Commission had the legal authority to use it for short term loans that could give Greece as part of the wider 86bn-euro (£61bn) rescue package.

As I understand it, the UK were then forced to hand over £600m.

Hugh Midde wrote:

Moist_Von_Lipwig wrote:

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

I'll have to say it again by the looks of it.

THE GREEK DEBT IS INCREASING BY £493 (€629) PER SECOND.

Greece has to default but Germany will not allow it as other countries will follow suit. Therefore we, the U.K, will be forced to do pay more.

Let's hope Sir Philip Green doesn't come calling for you to donate a £1000 towards the BHS Pension Fund.

You seem dopey enough to pay it.

Read my links earlier. The UK doesn't have to pay anything! Please do some research!

Cameron stated that a deal struck in 2010 should protect the UK from future eurozone bailouts. However, EU officials said the the European Commission had the legal authority to use it for short term loans that could give Greece as part of the wider 86bn-euro (£61bn) rescue package.

As I understand it, the UK were then forced to hand over £600m.

600m.... and....????????

IMO this referendum has done nothing but good for the future of the EU.

All the people in the EU countries are watching it closely. It's a wake up for the EU.

The trouble is that for me it has split the UK. I hope that, whatever the result, we will reconcile.

I think that if we remain, we have a great opportunity to change things (if our politicians respect the people's concerns).

If we leave, then we are alone and who knows for certain what might happen.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Moist_Von_Lipwig wrote:

Elias wrote:

Fair points.

I note politicians wont have the 'cover' of blaming eu for barmy policies. They will be judged by being the failures we know them to be.

I agree...

Plus one more thing (people may agree this is a good thing or not).......

Quoted as EU law etc AND/BUT endorsed by the UK goverment....

Why can I legally still smoke in some German pubs?

I have no idea.

Funnily enough though I have a mate (a non-smoker who as far as I know has never smoked) who is something of an expert in "building health" by which I mean the health of buildings in terms of energy efficiency, ventilation, utilisation of resources both in their construction and maintenance etc and at one stage he was responsible for winning the University of Plymouth a very, very lucrative contract with Big Tobacco (I forget exactly which company) to assess the impact of smoking in bars.

Anyway the dangers of passive smoking to non-smokers in confined places is now well-established fact and this was leapt upon by the government of the time (which I seem to recall was Tony Blair's) as they legislated for a blanket ban on smoking in-doors etc which remains in place today and is unlikely, I'd've thought, to be repealed.

Anyway my buddy actually proved that as long as places where people smoked were adequately managed in terms of air-handling (i.e. were well-ventilated and/or had air-cleaning units along the lines of air-conditioning units) that passive smoking posed no danger whatsoever.

I'm pretty sure his research was published, peer-reviewed and everything but it was disregarded and once the smoking ban was in place Big Baccy gave up, the contract with the Uni expired and he moved on with his next project.

All of which has nothing to do with the EU at all.

That has nothing to do with my point either!

My point is that what people believe to be EU law is not necessarily so. It is what the politicians would want us to believe to suit their own agendas!

Not all Brexiteers are racists/zenephopes. However, the nutters will see a Brexit vote as supporting their "cause".

If I were an immigrant in the UK right now, I'd be pretty concerned.

Whatever the outcome of the vote the aftermath is going to be interesting.

If we choose Remain then that's it for UKIP and Farage. There'll be no possibility for their ultimate goal to be achieved. They/he are a spent force.

If we vote Leave then the Cameron/Osborne axis is finished within the Tory Party and it'll have to be a Leaver, probably Boris but maybe Gove, that leads the party.

Where that would leave the foot soldiers of Remain is questionable as is what happens to their equivalent on the other side should remain win... The Tory Party could easily split because the Leavers won't ever let go or accept defeat; they'd have to merge with UKIP but to what end? English Nationalism? Might they try to establish a right wing ENP along the lines of the SNP/Plaid Cymru?

Whatever happens it is going to be messy.