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Sir Francis Drake

Sir Francis Drake

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PostSubject: Re: Nigel Farage   Nigel Farage - Page 15 EmptyThu Jun 05, 2014 10:59 pm

Iggy wrote:
Did you work for the NHS?

None of your business either way. Like I said: you haven't a scooby.

Haven't I made that abundantly clear?
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PostSubject: Re: Nigel Farage   Nigel Farage - Page 15 EmptyThu Jun 05, 2014 11:15 pm

OK. NHS. Question Time last week:

Q: will you privatise the NHS?
A: We'll streamline it.

You do the maths.

Read this it says more than I ever could.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

As for the Labour Party... Why on Earth do you keep assuming that I support them? It was them that started the internal market which logically continues into Mr Nuttall's statement I've linked to already.

Lefty anti-EU sentiment is nothing new. The Labour Party stood against joining the EU in Ted Heath's referendum. Again I'm not sure what your point is.

As for "is UKIP racist?" consider Farage's loose words about Romanians recently. By inferring directly that living next to Romanians was a bad thing he was being blatantly racist. There's no question about it. It couldn't be more black and white. He even admitted it himself and apologised saying that he was tired.

I'll not ever be voting UKIP except under circumstances so unlikely I can't even imagine them. God alone, again, knows why you think I might.

What sort of government would I like?

One that genuinely cared for all of the people lucky enough to live on these islands and offered them all a chance. Not one that sets public sector against private, boss against worker, employed against unemployed, Brit against foreigner, England against Scotland.

We are one of the wealthiest countries in the world and yet we can't even maintain our roads adequately.

Something is very wrong.

And UKIP'll make it worse.
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PostSubject: Re: Nigel Farage   Nigel Farage - Page 15 EmptyThu Jun 05, 2014 11:54 pm

You are not getting it are you SFD.

Even if I accept that Farage is racist, it still wouldn't mean that UKIP is. I may condemn Farage personally, but I wouldn't condemn a complete party for the views of one person. - In other words, had the UKIP manifesto stated "living next to Romanians is a bad thing", then your view would be a little more understandable, but it didn't and your view isn't understandable.. And don't forget, racism is illegal as are racist comments, so what you consider to be a racist comment obviously differs from the view of the authorities.

I am obviously not making myself clear but I will try one more time. UKIP has its problems, Labour also has its problems, the Conservatives has its problems as do the Green Party and even the Monster Raving Loonies have a few problems, but for whatever reason you seem only to want to highlight the problems that UKIP have while ignoring the problems of the others. For example, if you are as concerned about racism as you say you are, why on earth are you not mentioning the problems of racism within the other parties?
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PostSubject: Re: Nigel Farage   Nigel Farage - Page 15 EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 12:44 am

I am sorry if I gave the impression that I think UKIP is a racist party.

I had had a long day, was very tired at the time and did not choose my words carefully enough.
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PostSubject: Re: Nigel Farage   Nigel Farage - Page 15 EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 5:57 am

Accepted.

Generally, It does make me question the sincerity of those that play the racism card at election times and it's always aimed at the party that the individual has a grievance with and never the party that the individual is aligned with. Obviously, some people are not as passionate about racism as they claim to be and use racism merely as a cheap tool for point scoring and in the process dilute what remains as a very significant problem in society.
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PostSubject: Re: Nigel Farage   Nigel Farage - Page 15 EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 6:32 am

LOL - nice whoosh SFD. LOL.

I can see people trying to play the personal card - are you a Civil Servant, are you NHS
Some of these are the same people who rally against James Brent privatising Central Park - an Englishman, doing well for himself in the private sector. But then SFD, you're a hypocrite.

For what it's worth, I completely support your stance. It also amazes me that people seem to think UKIP are a party for the people and that Nigel Farage is some sort of common man for the masses.
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PostSubject: Re: Nigel Farage   Nigel Farage - Page 15 EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 10:32 am

I thought that the NHS jibe was a nice whoosh on my part, I sometimes suspect that my mind works differently than your average mans? Whilst trying to understand peoples political stance you find that it is usually very very relevant where they worked, have they retired, do they enjoy a decent pension ect, ect. Once you understand that you can usually work out why that person has that point of view. Political points of view are usually formed from a very self centred position and for the life of me I can't understand Frannies almost rabid hatred of Farage and the kippers UNLESS it would actually affect him in his pocket?  scratch 
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PostSubject: Re: Nigel Farage   Nigel Farage - Page 15 EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 10:36 am

hairy j wrote:
LOL - nice whoosh SFD. LOL.

I can see people trying to play the personal card - are you a Civil Servant, are you NHS
Some of these are the same people who rally against James Brent privatising Central Park - an Englishman, doing well for himself in the private sector. But then SFD, you're a hypocrite.

For what it's worth, I completely support your stance. It also amazes me that people seem to think UKIP are a party for the people and that Nigel Farage is some sort of common man for the masses.


Now there's a surprise, You wouldn't happen to have a cast iron job, Cast iron pension, The Option of early retirement(maybe) and low working hours(what is it now, 30/35 a week ?) I'd say your fully insulated against mass immigration employment wise, No hoardes of Bulgarians or Romanians competing for your cosy little number ? If they were you may just change your tune a little.
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PostSubject: Re: Nigel Farage   Nigel Farage - Page 15 EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 10:46 am

Rickler wrote:
GreenSam wrote:
As such, I think capitalism is the fault of most of society's ills-

Really?

Soviet Russia wasn't very capitalistic.  That was a great little bit of paradise here on earth wasn't it?

I'll take the states over N. Korea any time...

Actually...  Name me a socialist country you would like to live in?
Cuba, where they have a higher literacy level and lower child mortality level than the United States. Where education is free from nursery school to PHD level and where healthcare is fully, 100% nationalised.

GOB wrote:
GreenSam wrote:
Iggy wrote:
"It could always be worse" trademark all the apologists who have landed us with this totally useless form of government. I always had Franny down as a retired teacher I am now convinced he is a retired civil servant or has in some way benefited from the present political system, it's the only thing that makes sense.  Very Happy 
If you knew his politics, you'd know that he's very, very sceptical and angry about the present political system. So am I.

But we can have those feelings without feeling for a second that UKIP are anything even remotely approaching the answer with their promise of a flat tax and the full privatisation of the NHS.  I never thought that on an ATD thread that I'd EVER be defining myself by the same political terminology as Lord Tisdale but I too see myself as an old style socialist (or similar). As such, I think capitalism is the fault of most of society's ills- not immigrants. That's why, as pissed off as I am with the current system, I don't think that a bunch of elitist, racist, homophobic, sexist, uber-Thatcherite, anti-worker, aristocratic toffs would be anything resembling an improvement or anything resembling a kickback against the establishment.

And I don't usually like speaking for people, but I would venture to say that Franny is probably thinking along similar lines.

Sam I voted for UKIP, are you suggesting that I am an elitist, racist, homophobic, sexist, uber-Thatcherite, anti-worker, aristocratic toff?
No I don't. I've read your posts for years & years and I don't think you are those things but I think the party you voted for primarily are- and that's why I'm frustrated that I don't think enough people are seeing beyond the shell of UKIP. And to clarify- I'm not saying that EVERYONE in UKIP has all of those negative attributes to their name. But I think it's so jammed full of those type of people that that's probably enough to make a judgement on. If you were given a bowl full of chocolates and only 5 out of every 10 chocolates were poisonous then that surely, would be enough for you to make the general statement 'don't eat those chocolates, they're poison'. They may not ALL be poison but the principle applies nonetheless.

FY 310 wrote:
What did Sam mean by "anti-worker" ?
The introduction of much harsher labour laws, the abolition of the right of maternity/paternity leave for parents, the abolition of the working time directive, a history of campaigning in favour of cuts to public sector jobs and against strikes from workers- the only thing that some workers have to bargain with is their labour so as far as I'm concerned if they aren't pro-industrial action then they can't possibly be for the working man or woman.
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PostSubject: Re: Nigel Farage   Nigel Farage - Page 15 EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 10:57 am

Isn't Cuba......where a new car is 50yrs old generally.....or has it changed ?
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PostSubject: Re: Nigel Farage   Nigel Farage - Page 15 EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 10:58 am

@Greensam

Cuba!!

You gotta be joking!

We're talking living as one of the locals not as a tourist.
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PostSubject: Re: Nigel Farage   Nigel Farage - Page 15 EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 11:01 am

Although I've never been to Cuba it is only a utopian society when viewed from afar. I know that a lot of their problems stem from sanctions from the USA for not being good little capitalists but I know some Cubans and they couldn't wait to get out of there and onto our miserable shores. They have so little money its untrue, I think that our understanding of poverty is way way abeam of theirs. Having said that we could learn a lot from them still.
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PostSubject: Re: Nigel Farage   Nigel Farage - Page 15 EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 11:03 am

Iggy wrote:
Although I've never been to Cuba it is only a utopian society when viewed from afar. I know that a lot of their problems stem from sanctions from the USA for not being good little capitalists but I know some Cubans and they couldn't wait to get out of there and onto our miserable shores. They have so little money its untrue, I think that our understanding of poverty is way way abeam of theirs. Having said that we could learn a lot from them still.


Good Mechanics  Very Happy 
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PostSubject: Re: Nigel Farage   Nigel Farage - Page 15 EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 11:07 am

Iggy wrote:
Having said that we could learn a lot from them still.

How to roll cigars?
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PostSubject: Re: Nigel Farage   Nigel Farage - Page 15 EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 11:10 am

How to paddle 1500 miles in an old tyre ?
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Sir Francis Drake

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PostSubject: Re: Nigel Farage   Nigel Farage - Page 15 EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 11:17 am

Iggy wrote:
I thought that the NHS jibe was a nice whoosh on my part, I sometimes suspect that my mind works differently than your average mans? Whilst trying to understand peoples political stance you find that it is usually very very relevant where they worked, have they retired, do they enjoy a decent pension ect, ect. Once you understand that you can usually work out why that person has that point of view. Political points of view are usually formed from a very self centred position and for the life of me I can't understand Frannies almost rabid hatred of Farage and the kippers UNLESS it would actually affect him in his pocket?  scratch 

As I have said you can project anything you like onto me, a "rabid hatred of Farage" for one (your words not mine; "very self-centred" some more) in order to use those attributes as an argument if you like. It's a very shaky way of framing a point of view though but however inappropriate it may be I can't stop you. What I can do is refuse to legitimise your assertions because they are wild guesses and you haven't the faintest idea as to my personal circumstances - and I'm not about to give you them under any circumstances because, no matter what they might be, the facts surrounding UKIP remain completely unaltered by them.

Am I supposed to be compelled to tick certain boxes before I am allowed an opinion? It certainly sounds like it.

So please do not suggest that your values are the same as mine. By your own admission ("I can't understand Frannie's...") they cannot be.

Nor do I hate UKIPpers. I would describe my position as disagreeing with their entire political philosophy. I'm not religious. I don't like religions. I strongly disagree with their entire philosophies but I don't hate Christians, Jews, Muslims, Sikhs or anybody else as a result.

And, by the way, some of my best friends are UKIPpers.

Hatred doesn't come into it. Not on my side. Not even nearly.

I will however agree that we think very differently. That much is undeniable.


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PostSubject: Re: Nigel Farage   Nigel Farage - Page 15 EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 11:19 am

What they do have is proper socialist principles, we blind everybody with why we need financial mechanisms first and foremost to run the economy. Politics should be a lot simpler than that, what does the average man or woman need to survive? Roof over your head, food in your belly, water in the taps and sanitation. All that should be a given not an excuse for the prime minister and his mates to increase their pension fund. We are one of the top ten economies in the world, why do we have millions of working people living in poverty? The answer is because of the apologists for this political system.
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PostSubject: Re: Nigel Farage   Nigel Farage - Page 15 EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 11:21 am

Iggy wrote:
What they do have is proper socialist principles, we blind everybody with why we need financial mechanisms first and foremost to run the economy. Politics should be a lot simpler than that, what does the average man or woman need to survive? Roof over your head, food in your belly, water in the taps and sanitation. All that should be a given not an excuse for the prime minister and his mates to increase their pension fund. We are one of the top ten economies in the world, why do we have millions of working people living in poverty? The answer is because of the apologists for this political system.

That I can agree with. Completely.
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PostSubject: Re: Nigel Farage   Nigel Farage - Page 15 EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 11:36 am

Sir Francis Drake wrote:
Iggy wrote:
I thought that the NHS jibe was a nice whoosh on my part, I sometimes suspect that my mind works differently than your average mans? Whilst trying to understand peoples political stance you find that it is usually very very relevant where they worked, have they retired, do they enjoy a decent pension ect, ect. Once you understand that you can usually work out why that person has that point of view. Political points of view are usually formed from a very self centred position and for the life of me I can't understand Frannies almost rabid hatred of Farage and the kippers UNLESS it would actually affect him in his pocket?  scratch 

As I have said you can project anything you like onto me, a "rabid hatred of Farage" for one (your words not mine; "very self-centred" some more) in order to use those attributes as an argument if you like. It's a very shaky way of framing a point of view though but however inappropriate it may be I can't stop you. What I can do is refuse to legitimise your assertions because they are wild guesses and you haven't the faintest idea as to my personal circumstances - and I'm not about to give you them under any circumstances because, no matter what they might be, the facts surrounding UKIP remain completely unaltered by them.

Am I supposed to be compelled to tick certain boxes before I am allowed an opinion? It certainly sounds like it.

So please do not suggest that your values are the same as mine. By your own admission ("I can't understand Frannie's...") they cannot be.

Nor do I hate UKIPpers. I would describe my position as disagreeing with their entire political philosophy. I'm not religious. I don't like religions. I strongly disagree with their entire philosophies but I don't hate Christians, Jews, Muslims, Sikhs or anybody else as a result.

And, by the way, some of my best friends are UKIPpers.

Hatred doesn't come into it. Not on my side. Not even nearly.

I will however agree that we think very differently. That much is undeniable.
This.

I've got friends who are UKIPpers too. I can't stand the party but that doesn't mean I think it's an illegitimate view (how I hate phrasing things like that, but it's the only way I can say what I mean). The only ideology I'd seriously break a friendship with someone for would be if they genuinely were a racist or fascist or whatnot. I think UKIPpers are misguided but then I think the Tories are misguided too. They think I'm misguided too. If we blacklisted everyone who were thought was wrong on a certain political issue, then none of us would have very many friends.
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PostSubject: Re: Nigel Farage   Nigel Farage - Page 15 EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 11:36 am

Iggy wrote:
What they do have is proper socialist principles, we blind everybody with why we need financial mechanisms first and foremost to run the economy. Politics should be a lot simpler than that, what does the average man or woman need to survive? Roof over your head, food in your belly, water in the taps and sanitation. All that should be a given not an excuse for the prime minister and his mates to increase their pension fund. We are one of the top ten economies in the world, why do we have millions of working people living in poverty? The answer is because of the apologists for this political system.
And this. Completely.

The kind of proper socialist principles that you wouldn't see coming from Farage's mob in a million years.
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PostSubject: Re: Nigel Farage   Nigel Farage - Page 15 EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 1:15 pm

Rewinding back past our agreements I see there is a lot of condemnation of the ukipers plans to privitisation the NHS, this is anathema to me but did you realise that the Tories have recently signed trade deals with the USA that are almost certainly going to end up with NHS privitisation anyway? The thinking is that the septics have a very good privatised health service already (unless you are poor of course when it is non existent) and they have already started with the ambulance service. We also have a lot of privitisation within the NHS already with most of the staff being contracted out to agencies, I know one agency owner personally and they earn millions a year by trousering 25% of all the wages of the four hundred or so staff on their books. Their entire business is run from their admittedly rather large home by a husband and wife team and a staff of one admin. why aren't we paying an administrator in the NHS say fifty grand a year to do this job? It's the modern and only way we are told, could UKIP be any worse?
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PostSubject: Re: Nigel Farage   Nigel Farage - Page 15 EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 1:43 pm

And now that Camoron has "listened" then back to the status quo, I feckin well despair.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27728789
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PostSubject: Re: Nigel Farage   Nigel Farage - Page 15 EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 3:15 pm

Most people that use this site are very decent people that have far more in common than not, but the problem that we have with that is that when there are a lot of things in common we tend to concentrate on the little differences and most of this thread, if nothing else, highlights exactly that.

Forgetting UKIP and Farage for a moment and taking in a wider picture...I would like to see nothing more than a united Europe of varying cultures all living together and enjoying the differences that make up our cultures, the lack of armed soldiers standing guard on the borders, equality no matter what colour, race or sex along with all the other benefits that a united Europe could bring. There was once a time when I was a strong European supporter!

But I am very uncomfortable with the longer term values of a future Europe, its warring empire building ambitions, it's desire for wealth divides, it's willingness to promote modern day slavery to control economies under the guise of immigration, its dilution of employment law and workers rights, its willingness to lower the quality of life for profit and the lack of democratic processes that allows friends and family to gain positions of power for reasons of personal reward.  

I remember Thatcher saying how Europe was a back door route for socialistic values so that was enough to encourage me to sign up for it. But we have all been hoodwinked, Europe, if it ever was, is no longer a back door route for socialistic values and it isn't following the paths that would have brought the benefits that I believe in. Europe is simply a Conservative, capitalistic, undemocratic dictatorship hidden in a cloak of stealth that is being engineered to provide an extremely handsome living standard for a minority at the expense of the majority and to create a militaristic super state to retain the status quo. Is that the Europe that we want? It's not for me I'm afraid and I don't believe it's for the majority of the people that live in this country or even Europe. Give us the Europe that started out with the good intentions and we will all take it, but carry on down it's present path and they can stuff Europe where the sun doesn't shine!
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PostSubject: Re: Nigel Farage   Nigel Farage - Page 15 EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 3:24 pm

What employment legislation has been diluted by the EU?
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PostSubject: Re: Nigel Farage   Nigel Farage - Page 15 EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 3:41 pm

Sir Francis Drake wrote:
What employment legislation has been diluted by the EU?

Gawd SFD, if I start on that it will be a very long night and a very long post and I have a very long ride ahead of me!

There's a lot out there so you will have to research it. Try a few trade union sites, union forums etc. and you'll be reading for hours....Of course, all aided and abetted by our Conservative friends that are encouraging lots of juicy changes at the expense of the bloke at the bottom of the social and economic ladder!
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