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 The eastern european uprising ?

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Elias

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PostSubject: The eastern european uprising ?   The eastern european uprising ? EmptyWed Feb 19, 2014 3:11 am

Looks like an 'arab spring' coming to the ukraine .
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Mock Cuncher

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PostSubject: Re: The eastern european uprising ?   The eastern european uprising ? EmptyWed Feb 19, 2014 1:28 pm

25 dead.

Russia tugging one way, the EU the other, the really odd scenario of one of the Klitschko brother's being involved; I'm no historian of Ukraine, but the signs are that several of the revolutionary leaders from the West of the country come from fascist groups who previously aided the Nazis in the massacre of 60k+ Polish Jews in 1943...I doubt those from the East of the country have entirely unblemished records either.

What a mess.
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PostSubject: Re: The eastern european uprising ?   The eastern european uprising ? EmptyWed Feb 19, 2014 4:14 pm

Another civil war on Europe's doorstep looms? Sometimes it seems the whole damn world is in turmoil. Very sad.
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Elias

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PostSubject: Re: The eastern european uprising ?   The eastern european uprising ? EmptyThu Feb 20, 2014 7:37 am

Indeed, the battle to keep the 'east' east continues. Russia hold quite a few cards as belarus discovered.
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PostSubject: Re: The eastern european uprising ?   The eastern european uprising ? EmptyThu Feb 20, 2014 9:42 am

This morning - Ukraine security services now openly using live rounds after the fragile stand-off overnight disintegrates into more chaos. I don't think this will reach a peaceful conclusion now.

Inevitably, the unrest will spread across Ukraine, more so the more pro-European west of the country as it try's to fight off the hammer and sickle influence of it's Eastern bully.
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PostSubject: Re: The eastern european uprising ?   The eastern european uprising ? EmptyThu Feb 20, 2014 6:14 pm

Wow, just watched the 6 o'clock news, absolutely shocking scenes from Ukraine, what a mess.  red card 
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Lord Tisdale

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PostSubject: Re: The eastern european uprising ?   The eastern european uprising ? EmptyFri Feb 21, 2014 3:01 pm

'tis a shame for the Ukranian people, the leaders of the EU and O'Bammy should hang their heads in shame, this is of their making and do you really think that if protesters were throwing petrol bombs and firing live ammo at the police in Paris, Berlin or more particularly Washington, that the response of local law enforcement would be as restrained?

The Government of the Ukraine was elected, all governments should support the elected government in trying to keep control of the country they were elected to run, that hasn't happened here and we shall soon reap the whirlwind of the collapse in the democratic process.
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PostSubject: Re: The eastern european uprising ?   The eastern european uprising ? EmptyFri Feb 21, 2014 3:37 pm

Lord Tisdale wrote:
'tis a shame for the Ukranian people, the leaders of the EU and O'Bammy should hang their heads in shame, this is of their making and do you really think that if protesters were throwing petrol bombs and firing live ammo at the police in Paris, Berlin or more particularly Washington, that the response of local law enforcement would be as restrained?

The Government of the Ukraine was elected, all governments should support the elected government in trying to keep control of the country they were elected to run, that hasn't happened here and we shall soon reap the whirlwind of the collapse in the democratic process.

You must of missed it, happened years ago.
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PostSubject: Re: The eastern european uprising ?   The eastern european uprising ? EmptyFri Feb 21, 2014 4:20 pm

Good ol' Tiddles. Usual right loony authoritarian rhetoric that solves nothing but gratuitous desire. Saddam was elected by the way, as were the National Socialist right wing loonies masquerading as lefties for a couple of years.  
All America's fault is it ?Yeah Ok. Dream on. Very Happy 
My good friend's father escaped from the Ukraine ( his home town swopped regularly between Russian dominated UKraine and Poland every five minutes. He got to see his brother shot dead while they were escaping, at the time when that other authoritarian nut job Stalin was doing his own zero tolerance shit. What is the Ukraine authoritarian answer to the troubles ? snipers shooting people's heads off. Lovely, that'll solve it.
My friend's father joined the Polish free navy and settled in Plymouth. He would tell us all a thing or two about the Ukraine. How divided it was between Russia and Western Europe, and how it still is.
War is spreading and coming this way, just like it has always done. It has a smell. No amount of gratuitous authoritarian bullets will make anything go away. Get used to it.
Will Russia get involved ? Almost certainly, they probably are already behind the guns. Just have to wait for the Olympics to finish. European politics is sort of similar to the stuck jet stream.
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Lord Tisdale

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PostSubject: Re: The eastern european uprising ?   The eastern european uprising ? EmptyFri Feb 21, 2014 7:45 pm

Winter Green wrote:
Saddam was elected by the way,

Uh duh, no he wasn't, unless you want to count a show of hands of the generals who shortly after received a bullet in the head.

Usual miss the point response, the issue is a mob of anonymous thugs are throwing petrol bombs at the police, who for the greater part are showing huge restraint, not so much an authoritarian crack down as some kind of criminal crack down, if they tried it at 18th and Potomac for the length of time they have Bammy would have sent in the Apache gunships.

This problem was exacerbated by Bammy's Hypocrisy and the EU's shit stirring, it is an internal Ukranian issue which will of course involve the Russians, why Green as grass thinks it shouldn't defies belief, it's their back yard, Putin ain't Stalin and Russia have allowed Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and a raft of others go their own way, the EUSSR on the other hand has been ramping up the anti UK rhetoric at the mere mention of a referendum.

Violent overthrow of an elected government by a bunch of thugs in masks is never a good thing, I know a lot of Iraquis, most of them Kurds, and not one of them thinks Iraq is a better or safer place to live now than when Saddam was in place nor do they think there is any prospect of things getting any better in the foreseeable future, an Iraq without the punitive sanctions applied by the West could easily have developed into a decent place to live by now but the easily quoted mantras of democracy and freedom, spouted usually by people with a financial interest in the outcome, created a hell on earth for the Iraqi people.

The trouble in the Ukraine is all about a wrestling match over money and the control of assets that comes with power, it is not a popular rebellion of people fighting for their freedom. It might be worth remembering that were it not for Putin and Red Ed then Bammy, the EU and Britain would be backing up the murdering Muzzies in Syria, although I am not sure the situation there could be a lot worse.

It would be good is we could go back and ask the peoples of Iraq and Syria whether they would prefer it as it was before their lives came to a sudden and violent end, it's a shame that the people of the Ukraine couldn't stop the clock and wait until their next scheduled election rather than having their futures decided by freedom fighters in masks.

Still, I suppose as long as Green as grass can live in peace and security everything is alright.
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PostSubject: Re: The eastern european uprising ?   The eastern european uprising ? EmptySat Feb 22, 2014 8:13 am

Some truly amazing images here
http://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-protest-pictures-2014-2
WARNING some people might find them disturbing, upsetting.

Some of them don't seem real, as if they're an art project.
The eastern european uprising ? Kievriots12
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PostSubject: Re: The eastern european uprising ?   The eastern european uprising ? EmptySat Feb 22, 2014 9:55 am

Some powerful pictures there.

As an aside, the shot of the man in flames brings to mind the whole issue of photographers being active or passive in these situations. "Shit! That man's on fire! Do I try beat the flames out or do I take a photograph?"

I know next to nothing about Ukrainian democracy and I don't know to what extent the police or the military are seen as repressive agents but it does make me wonder how it feels to be a soldier/policeman stuck between a clearly deeply unpopular government and the violence of the uprising whilst simply trying to do their duty.
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PostSubject: Re: The eastern european uprising ?   The eastern european uprising ? EmptySat Feb 22, 2014 2:24 pm

I won't post it knecht but there was a famous photograph by Kevin Carter that is the most heartbreaking thing you'll ever see. He commited suicide. You're probably referencing that. I've put enough in this post for people to google if they're interested. I defy anyone to sit quietly alone and view that image without shedding a tear.

Personally, instant media is vital. Ukraine, 100 years ago would have annihilated the entire city. Now, we have enormous power as citizens - if only the North Koreans would realise it.
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PostSubject: Re: The eastern european uprising ?   The eastern european uprising ? EmptySat Feb 22, 2014 2:45 pm

I've just had to look up Kevin Carter. I didn't know his name but recognised the shot as soon as it came up on Wiki. Whether the bird was 10 metres 20 or 30 metres away it's a haunting shot. Without shots like those then the world won't know about the suffering. Anyone who saw Michael Buerk’s report from Ethiopia would have had no doubt of the human misery. As soon as journalists become embedded they run the risk of losing impartiality and if they get involved in relieving suffering then their ability to tell the world diminishes. And yet .....

PS I just found this quote from Don McCullin - "I have been manipulated, and I have in turn manipulated others, by recording their response to suffering and misery. So there is guilt in every direction: guilt because I don't practice religion, guilt because I was able to walk away, while this man was dying of starvation or being murdered by another man with a gun. And I am tired of guilt, tired of saying to myself: "I didn't kill that man on that photograph, I didn't starve that child." That's why I want to photograph landscapes and flowers. I am sentencing myself to peace."
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PostSubject: Re: The eastern european uprising ?   The eastern european uprising ? EmptySat Feb 22, 2014 3:13 pm

Lord Tisdale wrote:
Winter Green wrote:
Saddam was elected by the way,

Uh duh, no he wasn't, unless you want to count a show of hands of the generals
who shortly after received a bullet in the head.

Score another...Uh duh ... gurgle a bit information, or check your favourite websites, you know the ones.
That's what your generation do in the absence of REAL knowledge, isn't it ?
He actually held "elections" for years. He recieved 99.5% of the vote
on a regular basis. Wonderful how democratic voting works.
.
As you are laughingly bigging up and hiding behind the validity of democratic elections, what's your take
on the recently democratically elected Egyptian government with Muslim Brotherhood overtones being
locked up by a military coup ? Were the military doing their country a favour ? I bet they are on your planet.

You don't fool me for a second Tiddles. We all have our emotional shape, and you
certainly have yours. It's as plain as the nose on your face.  flower 
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PostSubject: Re: The eastern european uprising ?   The eastern european uprising ? EmptySun Feb 23, 2014 9:40 am

Looking at those images, it strikes me just how similar they are to what happened in London not so long ago. There's a thin line between revolution and the status quo.
We've got a shrinking welfare state, a widening have and have not divide and it is conceivable that, with more and more of the upper working class and lower middle classes drifting towards the 'have not' strata of society, it could happen here.

There's only so much corruption that people are willing to take and even something as seemingly unrelated happening recently (the floods), it won't take much for our Government to become a target. The bedroom tax, tax rises and reduced services, a crumbling NHS, bank bonuses, tax avoidance, expense abuse, fracking, potholes, regional inequality, policing seen as 'racist' (in London), 'illegal' wars and aggresive foreign policy, a right-wing coalition who, every day, tell us we need to sacrifice to keep them in power- we could be the next Ukraine. Ukranians aren't that culturally different to us.

This guy with the shield and the body armour could be you.
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PostSubject: Re: The eastern european uprising ?   The eastern european uprising ? EmptySun Feb 23, 2014 3:01 pm

Has anybody seen my glasses?
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pepsipete

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PostSubject: Re: The eastern european uprising ?   The eastern european uprising ? EmptySun Feb 23, 2014 3:36 pm

Behind you.
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PostSubject: Re: The eastern european uprising ?   The eastern european uprising ? EmptySun Feb 23, 2014 3:54 pm

I can't edit my post. Get rid of the massive image.
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mouldyoldgoat
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PostSubject: Re: The eastern european uprising ?   The eastern european uprising ? EmptySun Feb 23, 2014 6:27 pm

Done Hairy.

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Mock Cuncher

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PostSubject: Re: The eastern european uprising ?   The eastern european uprising ? EmptySun Feb 23, 2014 6:44 pm

So the Pres has fled, the old villains are back out of jail, the whole place is fooked and some are shouting louder than others abait it.

Sounds familiar...
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Angry

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PostSubject: Re: The eastern european uprising ?   The eastern european uprising ? EmptySun Feb 23, 2014 7:49 pm

Elias wrote:
Looks like an 'arab spring' coming to the ukraine .

Lets hope it works out well for the Ukraine, its worsen situations in Egypt, Libya and Syria.
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PostSubject: Re: The eastern european uprising ?   The eastern european uprising ? EmptySun Feb 23, 2014 8:52 pm

It isn't worse in other places at all. It's awful. Luckily, the difference is, the President decided to walk.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=934_1393021284

Don't watch this if you get upset watching people die. I've seen many videos this weekend that have made me deeply upset.This is happening in Europe.
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PostSubject: Re: The eastern european uprising ?   The eastern european uprising ? EmptySun Feb 23, 2014 9:22 pm

hairy j wrote:
It isn't worse in other places at all. It's awful. Luckily, the difference is, the President decided to walk.

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Don't watch this if you get upset watching people die. I've seen many videos this weekend that have made me deeply upset.This is happening in Europe.

How has it improved then? Egypt has already turned on the party they backed to overthrow President Mubarak and overthrown that, Syria is a civil war zone and Libya is just a clusterfuck at the moment with many tribes fighting each other for power in a game of thrones kinda way. All uprisings backed by the west and all have backed fired resulting in Replacing one tyrant with another in some cases.
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Czarcasm

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PostSubject: Re: The eastern european uprising ?   The eastern european uprising ? EmptySun Feb 23, 2014 10:32 pm

hairy j wrote:
It isn't worse in other places at all. It's awful. Luckily, the difference is, the President decided to walk.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Don't watch this if you get upset watching people die. I've seen many videos this weekend that have made me deeply upset.This is happening in Europe.

Sadly it is far far worse in Syria. Also in terms of loss of life, double-figure deaths from suicide bombers and car-bombs in Baghdad don't even make the news any more, such is their alarmingly regularity.

Whilst it is horrific that dozens of protesters have been killed in Kiev, you can't compare that to the indiscriminate killings of thousands of men women and children in Syria.
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