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Grovehill



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PostSubject: Re: Another Chairman Chat   Another Chairman Chat - Page 3 EmptySat Aug 29, 2020 11:46 am

Agreed Earwegoagain. When you look at the figures for loans/debt/sale value of CCC clubs, PAFC could be quite an attractive option for someone wanting to buy a Club.

In fact I would suggest this has been the plan all along for the current owner and his backers, but, of course that would bring the wrath of the "He saved us" [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] clan down on me.
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Graiser

Graiser

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PostSubject: Re: Another Chairman Chat   Another Chairman Chat - Page 3 EmptySat Aug 29, 2020 12:10 pm

I’m not sure if your a wind up merchant or just a Hallett hater talking bollox.

SH hasn’t accumulated his wealth without being an astute businessman in his profession, however the difference between him and Brent is he’s a supporter and backed his talk with funds, Brent didn’t.
If you’ve read all the chairman’s briefs without your usual prejudice, his primary aim is to set PAFC up to be self sufficient  and reach the championship.
If that makes Argyle attractive to a perspective buyer and SH feels it’s right for the club then why not.
One thing I don’t believe he would do is to sell to any tin pot outfit and put the club at risk as he really is a supporter.
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Earwegoagain

Earwegoagain

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PostSubject: Re: Another Chairman Chat   Another Chairman Chat - Page 3 EmptySat Aug 29, 2020 12:27 pm

Feck me Graiser but you are paranoid. You're reading between the lines of us reading between the lines. You are the only suggesting that anybody has a) compared Hallett to Brent and b) that Hallett would sell to some "tin pot outfit".
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Graiser

Graiser

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PostSubject: Re: Another Chairman Chat   Another Chairman Chat - Page 3 EmptySat Aug 29, 2020 12:33 pm

Earwegoagain wrote:
Feck me Graiser but you are paranoid. You're reading between the lines of us reading between the lines. You are the only suggesting that anybody has a) compared Hallett to Brent and b) that Hallett would sell to some "tin pot outfit".

Not really, I mean we all get used to posting and reading total crap on ATD, I could understand all the angst against Brent but grove’s posts about Hallett just aren’t supported by SH’s actions, that’s just facts and not “tugging my forelock” or tugging anything else for that matter.
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Graiser

Graiser

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PostSubject: Re: Another Chairman Chat   Another Chairman Chat - Page 3 EmptySat Aug 29, 2020 12:34 pm

Earwegoagain wrote:
Feck me Graiser but you are paranoid. You're reading between the lines of us reading between the lines. You are the only suggesting that anybody has a) compared Hallett to Brent and b) that Hallett would sell to some "tin pot outfit".

Not really, I mean we all get used to posting and reading total crap on ATD, I could understand all the angst against Brent but grove’s posts about Hallett just aren’t supported by SH’s actions, that’s just facts and not “tugging my forelock” or tugging anything else for that matter.
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Earwegoagain

Earwegoagain

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PostSubject: Re: Another Chairman Chat   Another Chairman Chat - Page 3 EmptySat Aug 29, 2020 12:43 pm

Graiser wrote:
Earwegoagain wrote:
Feck me Graiser but you are paranoid. You're reading between the lines of us reading between the lines. You are the only suggesting that anybody has a) compared Hallett to Brent and b) that Hallett would sell to some "tin pot outfit".

Not really, I mean we all get used to posting and reading total crap on ATD, I could understand all the angst against Brent but grove’s posts about Hallett just aren’t supported by SH’s actions, that’s just facts and not “tugging my forelock” or tugging anything else for that matter.

You don't pay much attention to what he's saying though do you? So far you are arguing with yourself no one mentioned anti Brent until you did.
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Graiser

Graiser

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PostSubject: Re: Another Chairman Chat   Another Chairman Chat - Page 3 EmptySat Aug 29, 2020 2:00 pm

Is this CBBC ? Bleddy feels like it’s sometimes
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Rickler

Rickler

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PostSubject: Re: Another Chairman Chat   Another Chairman Chat - Page 3 EmptySat Aug 29, 2020 4:19 pm

Grovehill wrote:
Agreed Earwegoagain. When you look at the figures for loans/debt/sale value of CCC clubs, PAFC could be quite an attractive option for someone wanting to buy a Club.

In fact I would suggest this has been the plan all along for the current owner and his backers, but, of course that would bring the wrath of the "He saved us" [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] clan down on me.


Can you show us those figures please?

Also.. Define "backers". Is that the SFD version of the word (meaning he couldn't define it once he'd put his foot in his mouth).
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Grovehill



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PostSubject: Re: Another Chairman Chat   Another Chairman Chat - Page 3 EmptySat Aug 29, 2020 4:36 pm

Show figures? On here? Are you joking? Everyone "knows" SH is seriously rich, no one has asked for the figures to prove that.

If you want to know the value of CCC clubs just google what sort of figures Clubs like Brum, Wigan, Sheff Utd etc. get sold for.

Backers=supporters by word or deed. Presumably his family, business associates etc have supported him in his dealings. Whether that support has been emotional, moral or of any other nature is of course, a matter entirely for speculation.

Has anyone else ever wondered why SH didn't get involved when the Club was in Administration? Perhaps, he felt that at that time, he didn't have the funds. Not stirring, just curious
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Grovehill



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PostSubject: Re: Another Chairman Chat   Another Chairman Chat - Page 3 EmptySat Aug 29, 2020 4:54 pm

Czarcasm wrote:
Grovehill wrote:
Czarcasm wrote:
Grovehill wrote:
Loves promoting the idea that pumping money into his own loss making business makes him some sort of saviour, doesn't he? Whether he puts money in as a loan or in exchange for shares, hardly makes any difference, or is he suggesting that when he sells off the Club, he won't be looking to get his money back?

Anyone else concerned that a so called financial expert can suggest that pumping in a few million quid makes the Club "sustainable"? Surely sustainable means trading at a profit? Or is he just throwing around words to hoodwink the financially illiterate?

Bit rich (see what I did there) of him to have a pop at Clubs with more income than Argyle when Argyle must be in the top six in the Division in terms of support.


Do you practice being thick as two short planks? Or does it come naturally?

Do you even understand just how stupid that statement is?

Let me explain, I'll try to make it simple for you.:

Hallett owns the business,so:

Option 1. He loans his business say £10 million, no point in charging interest as he would be paying it to himself. So he makes the loan interest free. When he sells the business, he tells the buyer "You will have to pay back my £10 million loan"

Option 2. He gives his business £10 million. When he sells the Club he tells the buyer "I put £10 million cash into the business, I will need to see that back"

Two options, one result.

Either way is good for the fans as the best way of increasing the value of his business is by improving it (ideally by reaching the Championship) Win win all round.

Just hope he looks both ways before crossing the road, as if he should die suddenly, 3 married children and a widow, means a lot of people interested in his assets. Just remember Matthew Harding and Chelsea.

But that’s just it Grovey, you may choose to ignore it, but Hallett has already stated and is on record as saying he very much doubts he will ever get back what he has put in. Obviously, the ONLY chance of that is clearly from Argyle being in a strong sustainable position in the Championship and being an attractive proposition to potential buyers ( as quite weirdly you do concede ).

Say for instance we bumble along in league 1 for Five years, ( or heaven forbid, league 2) Hallett ever being in a position to demand back ‘10 million’ from any potential buyer, is complete pie in the sky, isn’t it?

So the bottom line, the only way Hallett gets his investment back, is through Argyle being in a fantastic position all round ( which again weirdly, you concede). It is absolutely WIN WIN.

I’m scratching  my head as to why you even still attempt to slate him, in some wierd roundabout way.  scratch

The only thing that I can deduce is you won’t be happy unless Argyle get success without Hallett benefiting in any way from it!


Have I ever "slated" Hallett, would love to see the quote.

I'm wary of every football Club owner, mainly because however well they all start, it always ends the same way-bitterness all round, muds linging and the team in decline.

In fact the current situation at Home Park, reminds me of the early days of Dan MacCauley's ownership.

Popular Manager, team playing well, owner willing to splash the cash.

Although TBF the same (apart from the money) could be said about Stapleton's reign.

I can even remember when Kagami (the owner who never saw the team play) got involved, people were saying it was a new dawn, Club would make loads of dosh  from Far East merchandise sales. Then we were going to stage World Cup games (remember the Back the Bid  video?)

How did all that turn out?

Well Dan had his moment in the spotlight. but made the Club a laughing stock, Stapes went on holiday to Dubai as soon as the shit hit the fan, the Bid flopped and I doubt if we ever sold a single shirt in Japan

No owner lasts forever They all start well, they all finish the same-same old Argyle

Just ask Freathy
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Graiser

Graiser

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PostSubject: Re: Another Chairman Chat   Another Chairman Chat - Page 3 EmptySat Aug 29, 2020 4:57 pm

Grovehill wrote:
Czarcasm wrote:
Grovehill wrote:
Czarcasm wrote:
Grovehill wrote:
Loves promoting the idea that pumping money into his own loss making business makes him some sort of saviour, doesn't he? Whether he puts money in as a loan or in exchange for shares, hardly makes any difference, or is he suggesting that when he sells off the Club, he won't be looking to get his money back?

Anyone else concerned that a so called financial expert can suggest that pumping in a few million quid makes the Club "sustainable"? Surely sustainable means trading at a profit? Or is he just throwing around words to hoodwink the financially illiterate?

Bit rich (see what I did there) of him to have a pop at Clubs with more income than Argyle when Argyle must be in the top six in the Division in terms of support.


Do you practice being thick as two short planks? Or does it come naturally?

Do you even understand just how stupid that statement is?

Let me explain, I'll try to make it simple for you.:

Hallett owns the business,so:

Option 1. He loans his business say £10 million, no point in charging interest as he would be paying it to himself. So he makes the loan interest free. When he sells the business, he tells the buyer "You will have to pay back my £10 million loan"

Option 2. He gives his business £10 million. When he sells the Club he tells the buyer "I put £10 million cash into the business, I will need to see that back"

Two options, one result.

Either way is good for the fans as the best way of increasing the value of his business is by improving it (ideally by reaching the Championship) Win win all round.

Just hope he looks both ways before crossing the road, as if he should die suddenly, 3 married children and a widow, means a lot of people interested in his assets. Just remember Matthew Harding and Chelsea.

But that’s just it Grovey, you may choose to ignore it, but Hallett has already stated and is on record as saying he very much doubts he will ever get back what he has put in. Obviously, the ONLY chance of that is clearly from Argyle being in a strong sustainable position in the Championship and being an attractive proposition to potential buyers ( as quite weirdly you do concede ).

Say for instance we bumble along in league 1 for Five years, ( or heaven forbid, league 2) Hallett ever being in a position to demand back ‘10 million’ from any potential buyer, is complete pie in the sky, isn’t it?

So the bottom line, the only way Hallett gets his investment back, is through Argyle being in a fantastic position all round ( which again weirdly, you concede). It is absolutely WIN WIN.

I’m scratching  my head as to why you even still attempt to slate him, in some wierd roundabout way.  scratch

The only thing that I can deduce is you won’t be happy unless Argyle get success without Hallett benefiting in any way from it!


Have I ever "slated" Hallett, would love to see the quote.

I'm wary of every football Club owner, mainly because however well they all start, it always ends the same way-bitterness all round, muds linging and the team in decline.

In fact the current situation at Home Park, reminds me of the early days of Dan MacCauley's ownership.

Popular Manager, team playing well, owner willing to splash the cash.

Although TBF the same (apart from the money) could be said about Stapleton's reign.

I can even remember when Kagami (the owner who never saw the team play) got involved, people were saying it was a new dawn, Club would make loads of dosh  from Far East merchandise sales. Then we were going to stage World Cup games (remember the Back the Bid  video?)

How did all that turn out?

Well Dan had his moment in the spotlight. but made the Club a laughing stock, Stapes went on holiday to Dubai as soon as the shit hit the fan, the Bid flopped and I doubt if we ever sold a single shirt in Japan

No owner lasts forever They all start well, they all finish the same-same old Argyle

Just ask Freathy

ASK FREATHY! God help us.
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Rickler

Rickler

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PostSubject: Re: Another Chairman Chat   Another Chairman Chat - Page 3 EmptySat Aug 29, 2020 5:01 pm

Grovehill wrote:
Show figures? On here? Are you joking?  Everyone "knows" SH is seriously rich, no one has asked for the figures to prove that.

If you want to know the value of CCC clubs just google what sort of figures Clubs like Brum, Wigan, Sheff Utd etc. get sold for.

Backers=supporters by word or deed. Presumably his family, business associates etc have supported him in his dealings. Whether that support has been emotional, moral or of any other nature is of course, a matter entirely for speculation.

Has anyone else ever wondered why SH didn't get involved when the Club was in Administration? Perhaps, he felt that at that time, he didn't have the funds. Not stirring, just curious  


LOl.  I would have bet a million bucks you wouldn't show any "figures" and of course you can't.

So the word "Backers" in true SFD fashion means anything you want it to mean.  So in reality means nothing at all.

You really are so full of bollox it's frightening
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Earwegoagain

Earwegoagain

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PostSubject: Re: Another Chairman Chat   Another Chairman Chat - Page 3 EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 10:15 am

According to Transfer Market website there are only 5 clubs valued at under £10m which includes Luton, Rotherham and Wycombe. The values then jump above twenty mill and up to over a hundred million.
Judging my the reactions above I'm guessing that Ricks thinks Hallett has lost money? Personally I think he doesn't want to put more money in because he knows that if he does he'd be lucky to see his money back via club sale as he has invested up until now what the club is actually worth.
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Angry

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PostSubject: Re: Another Chairman Chat   Another Chairman Chat - Page 3 EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 11:26 am

hallet isn't abramovich where his wealth gets doubled every year regardless to what he spends. What he has is from incomes so naturally he wants to not deplete that too much cause it only takes one client of his to end his contract for hallett to feel the pinch.
Its in the club best interest that it doesnt rely on his handouts as if his funds get depleted cause he wants to please everyone that will impact on the club badly as it would him and then there is trouble for all.

As for the money hes put in ad if he gets all, none or some of it back that will be down to how strong we are on and off the pitch when he comes to sell and how much the club will be worth then.
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Grovehill



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PostSubject: Re: Another Chairman Chat   Another Chairman Chat - Page 3 EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 12:50 pm

Why do people keep referring to the "Club" and SH as if they are two entirely separate entities and infer that SH's support of the "Club" is some sort of act of philanthropy? If Richard Branson puts money into Virgin Atlantic to cover losses, nobody says "Branson gives loss making Airline a handout"

The "Club" is a business, owned by SH-if the Club losses money SH losses money. It's up to SH as the owner to either make sure the business trades profitably or to cover the losses.


Edited to add:

Again, this situation bears comparison to MacCauley's time as owner.

Dan threw his toys out of the pram and said he was fed up subsidising the Club.
SH has said that he's not putting any more funds in as the "Club" needs to be self-sufficient

Exactly the same story, different spin
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Czarcasm

Czarcasm

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PostSubject: Re: Another Chairman Chat   Another Chairman Chat - Page 3 EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 1:48 pm

I’m convinced you are purely on a wind up Grovey. Saying that Hallett is in the same league as the biggest nutcase ever to own Argyle is comical.

They both put money into Argyle on a level nobody else has ever done. The similarities start and end there.
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Angry

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PostSubject: Re: Another Chairman Chat   Another Chairman Chat - Page 3 EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 4:30 pm

Grovehill wrote:
Why do people keep referring to the "Club" and SH as if they are two entirely separate entities and infer that SH's support of the "Club" is some sort of act of philanthropy? If Richard Branson puts money into Virgin Atlantic to cover losses, nobody says "Branson gives loss making Airline a handout"

The "Club" is a business, owned by SH-if the Club losses money SH losses money. It's up to SH as the owner to either make sure the business trades profitably or to cover the losses.


Edited to add:

Again, this situation bears comparison to MacCauley's time as owner.

Dan threw his toys out of the pram and said he was fed up subsidising the Club.
SH has said that he's not putting any more funds in as the "Club" needs to be self-sufficient

Exactly the same story, different spin

no not really Simon hasnt been at the helm that long yet has done alot so far so there is no need for this place or pasoti in fact to call him out on anything without a good reason. brent however gave us plenty to hate him over during his ownership he gave plenty of sweetners to keep pastoi's love during that time, Simon probably learnt from dan's time that continually putting your money into the club when its not generating money itself nor other directors coughing up either was only going to end with him going bust and the club cause as staplewallet saw and did nothing really to stop it no income revenues beyond a benefactor is not going to end well and it didnt which is way he should have looked to sell the club 4 years before he lost it too administrators,.

Simon isnt a mark as the american's call fanatic fans he uses his brain he knows where our problems are and need to addressed and thats teh club generating incomes that can see the club sustainable over the years.
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Grovehill



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PostSubject: Re: Another Chairman Chat   Another Chairman Chat - Page 3 EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 6:24 pm

Who mentioned Brent? Wasn't me.

All I did was point out that at certain times during their tenure, nearly every owner of the Club has been looked on in much the say way as SH currently is.
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Rickler

Rickler

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PostSubject: Re: Another Chairman Chat   Another Chairman Chat - Page 3 EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 7:01 pm

Earwegoagain wrote:
According to Transfer Market website there are only 5 clubs valued at under £10m which includes Luton, Rotherham and Wycombe. The values then jump above twenty mill and up to over a hundred million.
Judging my the reactions above I'm guessing that Ricks thinks Hallett has lost money? Personally I think he doesn't want to put more money in because he knows that if he does he'd be lucky to see his money back via club sale as he has invested up until now what the club is actually worth.

When were the selling prices on the last few Championship and below clubs sold?  ..and how much debt was bought?


"Thinks".  Lol.  Of course Hallett has lost money.  He has put in X amount of millions and got back a big fat nothing burger in return so far.

As Czarks points out.  He is highly unlikely to ever see a profit on his money.  I doubt he will even break even.  More importantly...   I think making a 'profit' out of Argyle is the furthest thing from Hallett's mind.   Trying to make money out of football is for idiots.  SH obviously has found much easier ways to make his fortune.  The reality is...   and the likes of Grovey and Ears have a problem with this, is that Hallett has some spare cash, is a long time fan of the club, and wants to ensure that it can always survive by giving it self 'sustainability'.  The act is largely a 'charitable' one.  A pay back to the city of Plymouth for being good to him.
 
As far as I am aware, nobody has ever publicly asked SH what his 'endgame' regarding Argyle is?   I think it's fair to say that one scenario would entail the club never ever being bought or sold.  It would blow Grovey and Ear's little minds.
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Grovehill



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PostSubject: Re: Another Chairman Chat   Another Chairman Chat - Page 3 EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 7:27 pm

Dear oh dear, oh dear. Where to start?

Rickler seems to be a mind reader, I wonder, can he tell what I'm thinking now?

How will SH's football business never be sold again? Without meaning to upset anyone, it has to be pointed out that there is a very high likelyhood that SH will pass away at some time in the future, At which point his heirs may well decide that they wish to cash in some of their inheritance. Or they might keep it, but not be such an astute business person and turn a profitable business into a loss maker.

As to him being a long term fan of the Club, I do wonder again why he didn't get involved when the Club was in Administration. As for "paying back the City of Plymouth" is there any chance he might do something else-like build an ice skating rink?

My crystal ball (no, that's not a medical condition) predicts that SH will sell his football business within 2 years of achieving CCC status. And get back more money than he has put in.

Brent had Newell, Simon has Rickler.

I feel sorry for both of them
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Rickler

Rickler

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PostSubject: Re: Another Chairman Chat   Another Chairman Chat - Page 3 EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 7:35 pm

Grovehill wrote:

How will SH's football business never be sold again?

I am not surprised your mind is unable to come up with an answer.  Try thinking outside of your cramped little box.

Grovehill wrote:

Brent had Newell, Simon has Rickler.


It may have escaped your notice but 'Simon' has about 15,000 other 'Ricklers' too. ... as far as I can tell... You and Ears are about the only two real detractors. Which tells you everything you need to know...
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Graiser

Graiser

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PostSubject: Re: Another Chairman Chat   Another Chairman Chat - Page 3 EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 7:50 pm

Grovehill wrote:
Dear oh dear, oh dear. Where to start?

Rickler seems to be a mind reader, I wonder, can he tell what I'm thinking now?

How will SH's football business never be sold again? Without meaning to upset anyone, it has to be pointed out that there is a very high likelyhood that SH will pass away at some time in the future, At which point his heirs may well decide that they wish to cash in some of their inheritance. Or they might keep it, but not be such an astute business person and turn a profitable business into a loss maker.

As to him being a long term fan of the Club, I do wonder again why he didn't get involved when the Club was in Administration. As for "paying back the City of Plymouth" is there any chance he might do something else-like build an ice skating rink?

My crystal ball (no, that's not a medical condition) predicts that SH will sell his football business within 2 years of achieving CCC status. And get back more money than he has put in.

Brent had Newell, Simon has Rickler.

I feel sorry for both of them

Well if you use your crystal ball you obviously fantasise a lot, it comes across quite well.
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mouldyoldgoat
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mouldyoldgoat

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PostSubject: Re: Another Chairman Chat   Another Chairman Chat - Page 3 EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 8:03 pm

Grovehill wrote:
Dear oh dear, oh dear. Where to start?

Rickler seems to be a mind reader, I wonder, can he tell what I'm thinking now?

How will SH's football business never be sold again? Without meaning to upset anyone, it has to be pointed out that there is a very high likelyhood that SH will pass away at some time in the future, At which point his heirs may well decide that they wish to cash in some of their inheritance. Or they might keep it, but not be such an astute business person and turn a profitable business into a loss maker.

As to him being a long term fan of the Club, I do wonder again why he didn't get involved when the Club was in Administration. As for "paying back the City of Plymouth" is there any chance he might do something else-like build an ice skating rink?

My crystal ball (no, that's not a medical condition) predicts that SH will sell his football business within 2 years of achieving CCC status. And get back more money than he has put in.

Brent had Newell, Simon has Rickler.

I feel sorry for both of them

It was always said that there were more people interested in buying the club when it was in administration than brent, buttivant (whatever his name was) and heaney. Maybe he was frightened off by the pasty mafia from making a bid.

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Greenskin

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PostSubject: Re: Another Chairman Chat   Another Chairman Chat - Page 3 EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 8:23 pm

mouldyoldgoat wrote:
Grovehill wrote:
Dear oh dear, oh dear. Where to start?

Rickler seems to be a mind reader, I wonder, can he tell what I'm thinking now?

How will SH's football business never be sold again? Without meaning to upset anyone, it has to be pointed out that there is a very high likelyhood that SH will pass away at some time in the future, At which point his heirs may well decide that they wish to cash in some of their inheritance. Or they might keep it, but not be such an astute business person and turn a profitable business into a loss maker.

As to him being a long term fan of the Club, I do wonder again why he didn't get involved when the Club was in Administration. As for "paying back the City of Plymouth" is there any chance he might do something else-like build an ice skating rink?

My crystal ball (no, that's not a medical condition) predicts that SH will sell his football business within 2 years of achieving CCC status. And get back more money than he has put in.

Brent had Newell, Simon has Rickler.

I feel sorry for both of them

It was always said that there were more people interested in buying the club when it was in administration than brent, buttivant (whatever his name was) and heaney. Maybe he was frightened off by the pasty mafia from making a bid.


Seem to remember that Simon Hallett has stated in public that any progress beyond the championship would be financially out of reach and someone would have to take it on from there.If he makes money on his investment then good for him,couldn't care less as long as Argyle have made progress in the overall scheme of things.
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Grovehill



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PostSubject: Re: Another Chairman Chat   Another Chairman Chat - Page 3 EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 8:31 pm

Rickler wrote:
Grovehill wrote:

How will SH's football business never be sold again?

I am not surprised your mind is unable to come up with an answer.  Try thinking outside of your cramped little box.So, will Hallett live for ever, or will he leave it to his heirs, on condition that it's never sold?

Grovehill wrote:

Brent had Newell, Simon has Rickler.


It may have escaped your notice but 'Simon' has about 15,000 other 'Ricklers' too.     ... as far as I can tell...  You and Ears are about the only two real detractors.   Which tells you everything you need to know...

Please show me where or when I have been a SH "detractor" All I've ever said is that he may well be looking to make money, which as he can only do by making the Club successful, is fine by me. As for being in a minority, I can live with that. Almost everyone was a Brent fan in the immediate aftermath of Administration. In fact, only myself and a handful of others asked any awkward questions, which made us very unpopular in certain places

So please, try to read what I actually say, and allow that others are allowed a viewpoint that differs from your own.

The alternative is that ATD degenerates into another Pasoti.
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