Hillsborough and David Conn

justice at last for the families how its taken 27 years is a disgrace but they finally got their day in court. With the verdict of unlawful killing i fully expect criminal charges to be pressed now along with civil suits hopefully Kelvin McKenzie and the corrupt police officers will finally pay.

I read the 'match commanders' boss is no longer with us.........
The pm at the dead
Home secretary..........

Elias wrote:

I would be suprised if only the match commander lied, possibilty that those above told him what to say?

Let's just look at the incontrovertible facts here.

A very similar tragedy was narrowly avoided when Tottenham played Wolves a couple of years earlier when Spurs fans occupied that end.

Hillsborough did not have a valid safety certificate and should never have been awarded the match in the first place.

96 innocent people died with the disaster being shown live on TV as it unfolded.

That makes thousands of eye-witnesses who were there and millions who saw the TV footage.

The whole country knew what had happened as it happened.

There was only one ambulance able to get onto the pitch.

The emergency services were either absent or over-whelmed so much so that fans had to tear off advertising boards to use as stretchers to carry away the wounded, dead and dying.



There was a senior police officer at the ground in control of policing who was in contact with officers all over the ground both inside and out.

The police ordered the gate to be opened which resulted in a chain of events that caused the deaths.

(This was later lied about and Liverpool fans were accused of breaking the gate down.)

The video tape that would have shown exactly what happened at that gate was mysteriously lost amidst circumstances which have never been explained.

Every single policeman in South Yorkshire would have been involved in some way with the planning of the match and the police were the sole body responsible for crowd safety.

You can bet your bottom dollar that an disastrous event of such magnitude would have been instantly flagged at every level all the way to the very top of the police, other emergency services, FA and government.

Within hours The Sun had been briefed and their infamous "The Truth" front page was being readied to publish.

Nothing like that front page happens by chance but fans did not urinate on the backs of ambulancemen and the pockets of the dead were not picked.

The other cause of the tragedy was the fencing at the front of the Leppings Lane End. This was in place as a direct result of government/FA policy to stop pitch invasions. No regard was give to the pitch itself being an escape route or place of sfaety in an emergency.

Government policy was dictated by Mrs Thatcher who had it in for football generally. She hated football and football fans. Remember the ID cards debacle?

Ultimately the head of S Yorks plod and Mrs T were responsible for those deaths.

A cover-up was immediately actioned although it is unclear who ordered it to happen.

Police statements were altered, notebooks lost and other documents falsified. Nobody knows who ordered this.

It was all blamed on drunken football hooligans despite there having been no evidence that either hooliganism nor alcohol were causitive factors.

There then followed a long campaign to smear, query and denigrate Liverpool fans in general all aided and abetted by the spectre of Heysel at which they had also been involved being raised at every opportunity.

Eventually there was an Inquiry for which the cut-off point was 15:06 - when the game was stopped.

This precluded it from examining anything to do with the aftermath.

The Inquiry accepted all the inconsistencies bewteen official and fan accounts and sided with Officialdom.

The first Inquiry was a whitewash. How could a bloody High Court Judge allow his name to be a party to such a sham?

Since then successive governments led by Major, Blair and Brown did not want to know despite a stack of evidence building up that something very fishy had been going on all the way through.

All the way through political figures from Sir Bernard Ingham to Boris Johnson repeated and intensified the smears. Chief cheerleader for all of this was Kelvin MacKenzie, editor of The Sun at the time, who has never apologised or even admitted that he was wrong. Neither has any subsequent Sun editor. The Sun has since rehired Kelvin MacKenzie.

Rupert Murdoch controls The Sun absolutely. That front page would never have gone ahead without his say-so. Rupert Murdoch's paper supported Thatcher has since supported John Major and Tony Blair neither of whom were interested in any further official investigation.

The Sun currently supports the Tory Party which seems to have shelved the 2nd part of the Leveson Report which was going to examine links between the police and the media.

The minister responsible for stopping Leveson 2 is John Whittingdale who has recently been shown to have enjoyed exactly the type of unusually exotic sex life that has been bread and butter for Murdoch's rags for decades but which, unfathomably, have decided that in this instance the public interest would not be served by reporting any of it.

Stir into all of that Milly Dowler's phone being hacked, Andy Coulson, Rebekah Wade (also since rehired by Murdoch) and the close relationship all of them have with Cameron, Osborne, Gove and nearly every other senior Tory and you have a very toxic mix with the stench of corruption filering all the way up through every branch of our establishment from our emergency services, judiciary, politicians, government, journalists, editors and media barons.

Just ask yourself how could all of tihis have gone on without any of them knowing at least what their little corner of it all had been doing?

This is the biggest scandal this country has seen in my life time.

That said we're still not really at the bottom of what happened during The Miners' Strike much of which also featured The Sun, Maggie and S Yorks plod...

Elias wrote:

Corruption is everywhere.
I wonder if the match commander will see trial ?
Interesting how these things take 30 years plus to resolve gives chance for those involved to die  themselves ?

I think the 30 year rule should apply to shop lifting offences.

The "30 year rule" sees all government papers published, doesn't it?

Tick tock.

But that's the point. It's all yesterday's chip paper by then. And if it isn't, there is another even longer rule that trumps it.

Here's tomorrow's Sun front page.



It really is beneath contempt.

Here's The Times.



There's only one story in town but you'd never know it, would you?

Murdoch really is scum.

Don't forget that half the reason we football supporters are treated like livestock on match days, herded like cattle with dogs and SPG militia type police (of the type generally attributed to "communist type countries and regimes") happened as a result of this tradegy. This is why we aren't allowed to have standing at matches and no alcohol on the terraces (unlike our rugby counterpart fans) because we as football fans were shown to have acted so badly on this day. It's a victory on so many levels but will it make a difference? I doubt it, apathy abounds, they'm all bent innum?

No policeman retired or otherwise will see court over this.

either of these two should have been used over rita ora

seadog wrote:

No policeman retired or otherwise will see court over this.

I tend to agree but if they do and are found guilty the judge will not jail them on grounds of ''there's nothing to be gained'' (or similar)

Amsterdamage wrote:

Don't forget that half the reason we football supporters are treated like livestock on match days, herded like cattle with dogs and SPG militia type police (of the type generally attributed to "communist type countries and regimes") happened as a result of this tradegy. This is why we aren't allowed to have standing at matches and no alcohol on the terraces (unlike our rugby counterpart fans) because we as football fans were shown to have acted so badly on this day. It's a victory on so many levels but will it make a difference? I doubt it, apathy abounds, they'm all bent innum?

seadog wrote:

No policeman retired or otherwise will see court over this.

I think you're both right. We'll see what the CPS makes of it all but there'll be investigation, delay, obfuscation and more lost evidence and all the while those still surviving are getting older and older and fewer and fewer. Eventually there'll be so many gaps that no trial will be possible. Which will suit the guilty parties very nicely.

Amsterdamage is also spot on. Those of you not old enough to remember what stadia and matchdays were like pre-Taylor will never grasp how different it all is now and all the safety recommendations were made from conclusions that saw Liverpool fans, drunk, ticketless and violent as the reason for it all when we know now that that was not the case.

One thing that struck me tonight was how rapidly the cover-up was in place. Even when it was still all unfolding John Motson said on commentary that ticketless fans had broken a gate down and caused the crush. He wouldn't have made that up; he would have just relaid information fed to him. So where did that gem originate?

On another level Newsnight this evening said that W Midlands police were to be investigated for giving S Yorkshire police the all clear in their investigation. So that comes down to two Chief Constables in charge of two of the biggest police forces in the country. Newsnight also suggested that the Lord Chief Justice was involved.

There's no doubt in my mind that this will end up at No 10 eventually and I wouldn't be surprised if Jimmy Savile - wasn't he from S Yorkshire?) figures somewhere too. (OK that last bit is wild and fanciful but so too is the whole business as we understand it so far. This is all like some sort of ultra-paranoid X Files or Parallax View mega-conspiracy but if they can lie and attempt to hide the reasons for 96 deaths for 27 years (that sounds insane but it is exactly what has happened) it makes me wonder what else is being hidden - along with how it could be achieved. Look at it like that and Savile's involvement via either procuring minors or blackmail thereafter is only a matter of time.)

I hope no stone is left unturned in the quest to answer all of the questions that arise from this.

I also wonder how this is being covered overseas? If it is.

The whole saga blows apart completely the idea that Britain is less corrupt than your average Banana Republic and the notion of "British integrity" has been a massive soft power lever that we trade on all over the world.

So much for that then.

If you can't trust the police, judiciary and government then can you trust anybody else?

You left out the Iraq enquiry. Oh, and citizen's right to free assembly at virtually every political demonstration I've ever attended, where police continually break the law as of course. So much so, that I believe "they" are trying to stop us having the right to sue the police for unlawful imprisonment etc etc. Do yer work, keep yer nose clean, and hope they don't bash you over the head, egged on by the authority loving suburbs mowing their lawns.
I blame the EU. It's all their fault

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

If you can't trust the police, judiciary and government then can you trust anybody else?

These cvnts should be hung drawn and quartered for Hillsborough they deserve it

Lord Biro wrote:

You left out the Iraq enquiry. Oh, and citizen's right to free assembly at virtually every political demonstration I've ever attended, where police continually break the law as of course. So much so, that I believe "they" are trying to stop us having the right to sue the police for unlawful imprisonment etc etc. Do yer work, keep yer nose clean, and hope they don't bash you over the head, egged on by the authority loving suburbs mowing their lawns.
I blame the EU. It's all their fault

Of course.

I think the demo where most eyes were opened was the Countryside Alliance pro-hunting one. In stead of the usual demo participant where the majority attending are immigrants or strikers or hippies or anarchists or dolies or students or some other similarly derided crusty banner carrier this once was comprised mainly of Barbour-jacketed, white, middle class Tory/UKIP voting farmers and farmworkers from the Shires.

They didn't believe that the Met routinely set horses on demonstrators or kettled them or hid their numbers so that when the truncheons came out nobody could identify who had done what or that they'd provoke people in a variety of ways hoping that it would kick off so they could go steaming in and break a few heads.

They soon found out how wrong they were.

There is a pro-Europe angle to all of this.

Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) places a duty on the state to protect the right to life of all individuals. It was this that enabled the JFT96 campaign to get the original Inquest verdict over-turned and to start again.

Without being signed up to the ECHR yesterday's verdict would never, could never have happened.

I accept "wouldn't happen in Europe jibes" although I am an exiter I'm not ignoring the fact we desperately need some serious change to the make up of power over here, that will only come from a socialist leaning government with no offshore inheritance, cushy directorships post gov. and being related by family or business to the institution. Say what you like about Jezza if he was in power instead of Maggie we wouldn't have had this cover up.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Amsterdamage wrote:

Don't forget that half the reason we football supporters are treated like livestock on match days, herded like cattle with dogs and SPG militia type police (of the type generally attributed to "communist type countries and regimes") happened as a result of this tradegy. This is why we aren't allowed to have standing at matches and no alcohol on the terraces (unlike our rugby counterpart fans) because we as football fans were shown to have acted so badly on this day. It's a victory on so many levels but will it make a difference? I doubt it, apathy abounds, they'm all bent innum?

seadog wrote:

No policeman retired or otherwise will see court over this.

I think you're both right. We'll see what the CPS makes of it all but there'll be investigation, delay, obfuscation and more lost evidence and all the while those still surviving are getting older and older and fewer and fewer. Eventually there'll be so many gaps that no trial will be possible. Which will suit the guilty parties very nicely.

Amsterdamage is also spot on. Those of you not old enough to remember what stadia and matchdays were like pre-Taylor will never grasp how different it all is now and all the safety recommendations were made from conclusions that saw Liverpool fans, drunk, ticketless and violent as the reason for it all when we know now that that was not the case.

One thing that struck me tonight was how rapidly the cover-up was in place. Even when it was still all unfolding John Motson said on commentary that ticketless fans had broken a gate down and caused the crush. He wouldn't have made that up; he would have just relaid information fed to him. So where did that gem originate?

On another level Newsnight this evening said that W Midlands police were to be investigated for giving S Yorkshire police the all clear in their investigation. So that comes down to two Chief Constables in charge of two of the biggest police forces in the country. Newsnight also suggested that the Lord Chief Justice was involved.

There's no doubt in my mind that this will end up at No 10 eventually and I wouldn't be surprised if Jimmy Savile - wasn't he from S Yorkshire?) figures somewhere too. (OK that last bit is wild and fanciful but so too is the whole business as we understand it so far. This is all like some sort of ultra-paranoid X Files or Parallax View mega-conspiracy but if they can lie and attempt to hide the reasons for 96 deaths for 27 years (that sounds insane but it is exactly what has happened) it makes me wonder what else is being hidden - along with how it could be achieved. Look at it like that and Savile's involvement via either procuring minors or blackmail thereafter is only a matter of time.)

I hope no stone is left unturned in the quest to answer all of the questions that arise from this.

OMG.

There is a potential link to Savile here: the Rotherham child abuse ring that was exposed recently.

S Yorks plod were told all about that many times but did nothing.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/tony-blair-not-order-hillsborough-9658130

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Amsterdamage wrote:

Don't forget that half the reason we football supporters are treated like livestock on match days, herded like cattle with dogs and SPG militia type police (of the type generally attributed to "communist type countries and regimes") happened as a result of this tradegy. This is why we aren't allowed to have standing at matches and no alcohol on the terraces (unlike our rugby counterpart fans) because we as football fans were shown to have acted so badly on this day. It's a victory on so many levels but will it make a difference? I doubt it, apathy abounds, they'm all bent innum?

seadog wrote:

No policeman retired or otherwise will see court over this.

I think you're both right. We'll see what the CPS makes of it all but there'll be investigation, delay, obfuscation and more lost evidence and all the while those still surviving are getting older and older and fewer and fewer. Eventually there'll be so many gaps that no trial will be possible. Which will suit the guilty parties very nicely.

Amsterdamage is also spot on. Those of you not old enough to remember what stadia and matchdays were like pre-Taylor will never grasp how different it all is now and all the safety recommendations were made from conclusions that saw Liverpool fans, drunk, ticketless and violent as the reason for it all when we know now that that was not the case.

One thing that struck me tonight was how rapidly the cover-up was in place. Even when it was still all unfolding John Motson said on commentary that ticketless fans had broken a gate down and caused the crush. He wouldn't have made that up; he would have just relaid information fed to him. So where did that gem originate?

On another level Newsnight this evening said that W Midlands police were to be investigated for giving S Yorkshire police the all clear in their investigation. So that comes down to two Chief Constables in charge of two of the biggest police forces in the country. Newsnight also suggested that the Lord Chief Justice was involved.

There's no doubt in my mind that this will end up at No 10 eventually and I wouldn't be surprised if Jimmy Savile - wasn't he from S Yorkshire?) figures somewhere too. (OK that last bit is wild and fanciful but so too is the whole business as we understand it so far. This is all like some sort of ultra-paranoid X Files or Parallax View mega-conspiracy but if they can lie and attempt to hide the reasons for 96 deaths for 27 years (that sounds insane but it is exactly what has happened) it makes me wonder what else is being hidden - along with how it could be achieved. Look at it like that and Savile's involvement via either procuring minors or blackmail thereafter is only a matter of time.)

I hope no stone is left unturned in the quest to answer all of the questions that arise from this.

OMG.

There is a potential link to Savile here: the Rotherham child abuse ring that was exposed recently.

S Yorks plod were told all about that many times but did nothing.

And that's not the only link, like the scousers, he loved a shellsuit.

Woke up Thursday and still first item on main Sky News. The Families need to let the CPS hopefully do their job and in the meantime stop shouting it from the rooftops of the Polices corruption.
Public is on their side no question currently and thats where the Liverpool families need to remain but there will be more than a few on this and every forum that know full well that "some" supporters were well pissed up because thats simply what we did pre match in the 80's and 90's with me no exception.
Anyone who counter claims that no one was pissed is deluding themselves and most know it

After the longest inquest in British legal history the jury, which saw all of the evidence collected by every interested party and listened to all of the arguments and counter-arguments presented by some of the country's leading lawyers and barristers about it, has unreservedly exonerated the Liverpool fans of all accusations made against them and still you want to blame them despite there being not a shred of evidence to support what you're saying?

Have I got that right?

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

After the longest inquest in British legal history the jury, which saw all of the evidence collected by every interested party and listened to all of the arguments and counter-arguments presented by some of the country's leading lawyers and barristers about it, has unreservedly exonerated the Liverpool fans of all accusations made against them and still you want to blame them despite there being not a shred of evidence to support what you're saying?

Have I got that right?

Where did I say I blamed Liverpool fans !!
I'll turn it around for you. Do you seriously expect people to believe that every Liverpool Fan in that end had not drunk one drop of alcohol that day !  Course they had as we all do.
What I'm saying is that Liverpool fans are in the right no question so the families do themselves no favours by shouting the same message from the rooftops. We get it. The Court accepts it. Move on
Hearing that lead whining woman day after day will quickly lose them public sympathy. Let the CPS get on and deal with it

Even if the police opened the gate, the fans did not have to rush in and crush people to death. Remember Argyle fans at Arsenal singing let us in, let us in. Some did not get in till half time.