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Grovehill



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PostSubject: Lesson Learned?   Lesson Learned? EmptyWed Aug 28, 2019 12:17 pm

With the sad demise of Bury FC as a League team, it has to be asked if other Clubs  have learned a lesson.

I think this  is  particularly relevant to PAFC as Ryan Lowe was responsible for running up an unsustainable wage bill at Bury. He has now joined PAFC bringing several ex Bury employees with him-none of whom, I suspect, have joined on lesser terms. PAFC now have a very large squad and more worrying, a very large backroom team for the league in which they find themselves.

This may be manageable atm with a Chairman who seems willing to finance the team and more importantly, attendances well above the norm for this league. However, as the past has shown, things can soon change-a poor run of results can quickly lead to lower attendances, and the Chairman, who has repeated his desire for the club to be "sustainable" might decide he is no longer willing to put his hand in his pocket. Add the possibility that the Golden Goose stand redevelopment might well turn into a lame duck and it is possible that things may become very tight over the next few years if on field success isn't forthcoming.

Of course, the other factor in the failure of football clubs is the fans themselves. Continued demand for more and better players, can, if not reined in by Club management leave clubs with huge financial commitments that they have no hope of meeting. Remember Steve MacClean and Si Walton? And Sturrock was a cautious manager, whereas RL seems to think he can spend spend spend like his mates Jurgen & Stevie G.
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Angry

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PostSubject: Re: Lesson Learned?   Lesson Learned? EmptyWed Aug 28, 2019 1:39 pm

it is relevant your right all clubs must take heed and if Bolton fold i think that will be a bigger wake up call to football than Bury that something has to be done about the premierships spending thats having a knock on affect on the lower leagues in terms of transfer fees and wages.
I believe Simon Hallet wont make the same mistakes Bury did with ryan when he was signing injury prone players on high wages who only played once ala jermaine beckford. He wont want the club to be in a postition where ryan signings and staff are going to cripple the club with their wages and demands. He will of course back him to the hilt but i think ryan too will learn the lesson from bury also.
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harvetheslayer

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PostSubject: Re: Lesson Learned?   Lesson Learned? EmptyWed Aug 28, 2019 1:44 pm

I very much doubt that Ryan Lowe had exceeded a budget he described as very good provided by Simon Halett no matter what the size of the squad and back room staff.
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Jethro

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PostSubject: Re: Lesson Learned?   Lesson Learned? EmptyWed Aug 28, 2019 2:13 pm

I don't think Lowe seems to think he can spend like those two,

Beckford was a Lee Clark signing not a Lowe one,

Bury were already in the shit before Lowe was made manager
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akagreengull
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akagreengull

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PostSubject: Re: Lesson Learned?   Lesson Learned? EmptyWed Aug 28, 2019 2:48 pm

Jethro wrote:
I don't think Lowe seems to think he can spend like those two,

Beckford was a Lee Clark signing not a Lowe one,

Bury were already in the shit before Lowe was made manager

Correct and Bury FC were already in the shit before the arsehole Dale bought it for £1.
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Jethro

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PostSubject: Re: Lesson Learned?   Lesson Learned? EmptyWed Aug 28, 2019 2:53 pm

akagreengull wrote:
Jethro wrote:
I don't think Lowe seems to think he can spend like those two,

Beckford was a Lee Clark signing not a Lowe one,

Bury were already in the shit before Lowe was made manager

Correct and Bury FC were already in the shit before the arsehole Dale bought it for £1.

Just seen a couple tweets from understandably upset bury fans, Digging Lowe out for not doing what he could to save them.

"when they reform, why the f--k didn't he (Lowe)help to save them?
the best thing he could have done was help keep them in business. now it is too late. he should be ashamed like all of you media."

"You must have known as manager the wage bill was unsustainable Ryan?"

Wtf could Ryan have actually done, the moment he stood up to Dale he would have been out on his arse,
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Earwegoagain

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PostSubject: Re: Lesson Learned?   Lesson Learned? EmptyWed Aug 28, 2019 3:29 pm

Cardiff was run unsustainably at the same time we went down the shitter, in fact they were way, way more in debt than we were but they plugged on and kept the cash flow going and made it instead of faltering like we did. Football clubs are like banks these day literally only a handful of them have enough assets to cover their debts.
As for Lowe it's his job to spend the budget given by the chairman his goal being promotion, he delivered on that front, job done I'd say.
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Hugh Watt



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PostSubject: Re: Lesson Learned?   Lesson Learned? EmptyWed Aug 28, 2019 3:29 pm

Jethro wrote:
akagreengull wrote:
Jethro wrote:
I don't think Lowe seems to think he can spend like those two,

Beckford was a Lee Clark signing not a Lowe one,

Bury were already in the shit before Lowe was made manager

Correct and Bury FC were already in the shit before the arsehole Dale bought it for £1.

Just seen a couple tweets from understandably upset bury fans, Digging Lowe out for not doing what he could to save them.

"when they reform, why the f--k didn't he (Lowe)help to save them?
the best thing he could have done was help keep them in business. now it is too late. he should be ashamed like all of you media."

"You must have known as manager the wage bill was unsustainable Ryan?"

Wtf could Ryan have actually done, the moment he stood up to Dale he would have been out on his arse,  

Lowes job is to run the first team, not the club.
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Jethro

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PostSubject: Re: Lesson Learned?   Lesson Learned? EmptyWed Aug 28, 2019 3:43 pm

Hugh Watt wrote:
Jethro wrote:
akagreengull wrote:
Jethro wrote:
I don't think Lowe seems to think he can spend like those two,

Beckford was a Lee Clark signing not a Lowe one,

Bury were already in the shit before Lowe was made manager

Correct and Bury FC were already in the shit before the arsehole Dale bought it for £1.

Just seen a couple tweets from understandably upset bury fans, Digging Lowe out for not doing what he could to save them.

"when they reform, why the f--k didn't he (Lowe)help to save them?
the best thing he could have done was help keep them in business. now it is too late. he should be ashamed like all of you media."

"You must have known as manager the wage bill was unsustainable Ryan?"

Wtf could Ryan have actually done, the moment he stood up to Dale he would have been out on his arse,  

Lowes job is to run the first team, not the club.

Exactly my thoughts, Don't see how or why they are trying to pin anything on Lowe,
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Czarcasm

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PostSubject: Re: Lesson Learned?   Lesson Learned? EmptyWed Aug 28, 2019 4:11 pm

Jethro wrote:
Hugh Watt wrote:
Jethro wrote:
akagreengull wrote:
Jethro wrote:
I don't think Lowe seems to think he can spend like those two,

Beckford was a Lee Clark signing not a Lowe one,

Bury were already in the shit before Lowe was made manager

Correct and Bury FC were already in the shit before the arsehole Dale bought it for £1.

Just seen a couple tweets from understandably upset bury fans, Digging Lowe out for not doing what he could to save them.

"when they reform, why the f--k didn't he (Lowe)help to save them?
the best thing he could have done was help keep them in business. now it is too late. he should be ashamed like all of you media."

"You must have known as manager the wage bill was unsustainable Ryan?"

Wtf could Ryan have actually done, the moment he stood up to Dale he would have been out on his arse,  

Lowes job is to run the first team, not the club.

Exactly my thoughts, Don't see how or why they are trying to pin anything on Lowe,

Because when trauma like this occurs fans will, in their frustration, look anywhere and everywhere to apportion blame. Lowe wasn’t controlling the finances, but he’ll clearly know how bad things were looking in the last few months he was there.

Whoever was running the show before Dale has initially given the green light to unsustainable wages being paid. Then Dale has come in with the sole intention of screwing a profit out of a decaying carcass, and that’s gone tits up for him now. If someone other than Dale has come in whose primary objective was keeping the club alive they’d have had a chance.

If I was gonna apportion blame it’d be 40% to the incumbents before Dale. Then 40% Dale. Then 20% to the EFL for their shocking due diligence searches.
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Hugh Watt



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PostSubject: Re: Lesson Learned?   Lesson Learned? EmptyWed Aug 28, 2019 4:37 pm

I don't know whether he did. Most players won't know anything is wrong until they stop getting piad. Even then they'll had a myriad of excuses thrown at them.
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Grovehill



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PostSubject: Re: Lesson Learned?   Lesson Learned? EmptyWed Aug 28, 2019 4:41 pm

Lowe knew what the gates were and should have known what sort of fees and wages the club could afford. But has any manager ever told his chairman that they were overspending-more likely they are pestering the Board for more money just to buy that "special" player that will make all the difference-then asking again three months later.

 Lowe seems to have been determined to get certain players in over the summer without bothering to move many out. So he now has a bigger squad than most in this league and every chance of being stuck with players who are not good enough and no one will take them off his hands. Or, nearly as bad, players on 2 or 3 year contracts who won't be good enough in a higher league.

It is noticeable that very few ex Bury players moved to a higher league this summer, so presumably, were judged by most teams as not good enough to step up-even when available for nothing!
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Czarcasm

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PostSubject: Re: Lesson Learned?   Lesson Learned? EmptyWed Aug 28, 2019 4:53 pm

Grovehill wrote:
Lowe knew what the gates were and should have known what sort of fees and wages the club could afford. But has any manager ever told his chairman that they were overspending-more likely they are pestering the Board for more money just to buy that "special" player that will make all the difference-then asking again three months later.

 Lowe seems to have been determined to get certain players in over the summer without bothering to move many out. So he now has a bigger squad than most in this league and every chance of being stuck with players who are not good enough and no one will take them off his hands. Or, nearly as bad, players on 2 or 3 year contracts who won't be good enough in a higher league.

It is noticeable that very few ex Bury players moved to a higher league this summer, so presumably, were judged by most teams as not good enough to step up-even when available for nothing!

I’m struggling with your topsyturvy stance on Argyle, Grovey.

In layman’s terms, you’re saying you’re concerned the budget Hallett has given Lowe is too high.

Which after the way you’ve castigated Brent and his budget for years, is just a bit wierd.
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Jethro

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PostSubject: Re: Lesson Learned?   Lesson Learned? EmptyWed Aug 28, 2019 5:03 pm

23 man squad 29 including 3 out on loan,
another 2 meant to be going out on loan,
3 in on loan,
7 of which 1st-3rd in fletchers case professionals.

Expect most to have year or so left on deals too prove to Lowe they should be here long term
Which will most likely be cheaper in the long run, then paying someone off then having to replace them out of this year budget.


Hardly see it as troubling financially,

But I don't understand it, Wanted Brent to spend money now Hallet has spent some,doesn't want hallet to spend too much.
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RegGreen



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PostSubject: Re: Lesson Learned?   Lesson Learned? EmptyWed Aug 28, 2019 5:30 pm

Jethro wrote:
Hugh Watt wrote:
Jethro wrote:
akagreengull wrote:
Jethro wrote:
I don't think Lowe seems to think he can spend like those two,

Beckford was a Lee Clark signing not a Lowe one,

Bury were already in the shit before Lowe was made manager

Correct and Bury FC were already in the shit before the arsehole Dale bought it for £1.

Just seen a couple tweets from understandably upset bury fans, Digging Lowe out for not doing what he could to save them.

"when they reform, why the f--k didn't he (Lowe)help to save them?
the best thing he could have done was help keep them in business. now it is too late. he should be ashamed like all of you media."

"You must have known as manager the wage bill was unsustainable Ryan?"

Wtf could Ryan have actually done, the moment he stood up to Dale he would have been out on his arse,  

Lowes job is to run the first team, not the club.

Exactly my thoughts, Don't see how or why they are trying to pin anything on Lowe,
id have thought bury fans know the more in & outs of it than we do though..just saying
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Tgwu



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PostSubject: Re: Lesson Learned?   Lesson Learned? EmptyWed Aug 28, 2019 5:35 pm



Ryan on sky debate 10:15pm tonight
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Jethro

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PostSubject: Re: Lesson Learned?   Lesson Learned? EmptyWed Aug 28, 2019 5:54 pm

RegGreen wrote:
Jethro wrote:
Hugh Watt wrote:
Jethro wrote:
akagreengull wrote:
Jethro wrote:
I don't think Lowe seems to think he can spend like those two,

Beckford was a Lee Clark signing not a Lowe one,

Bury were already in the shit before Lowe was made manager

Correct and Bury FC were already in the shit before the arsehole Dale bought it for £1.

Just seen a couple tweets from understandably upset bury fans, Digging Lowe out for not doing what he could to save them.

"when they reform, why the f--k didn't he (Lowe)help to save them?
the best thing he could have done was help keep them in business. now it is too late. he should be ashamed like all of you media."

"You must have known as manager the wage bill was unsustainable Ryan?"

Wtf could Ryan have actually done, the moment he stood up to Dale he would have been out on his arse,  

Lowes job is to run the first team, not the club.

Exactly my thoughts, Don't see how or why they are trying to pin anything on Lowe,
id have thought bury fans know the more in & outs of it than we do though..just saying

But everyone knows they was already in the shit before Lowe took over,

Dale not having the money to pay for any budget over or under is what ulitmatly killed Bury off nothing Lowe did,
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Jethro

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PostSubject: Re: Lesson Learned?   Lesson Learned? EmptyWed Aug 28, 2019 5:56 pm

Tgwu wrote:


Ryan on sky debate 10:15pm tonight

They normally put them on youtube after they air.
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Coxside_Green



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PostSubject: Re: Lesson Learned?   Lesson Learned? EmptyWed Aug 28, 2019 6:32 pm

Hallett has around £15m tied up in the club, can't really see him risking that by going overboard on the playing budget.  Dale on the other hand had a quid invested, it's when they have little to nothing to lose we should be concerned.
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Grovehill



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PostSubject: Re: Lesson Learned?   Lesson Learned? EmptyWed Aug 28, 2019 8:29 pm

My concern is that, good manager as he seems to be, Lowe does have a record of "buying" success at Bury and may have the ability to get clubs to spend more than is wise. The squad he amassed at Bury was, by all accounts expensive, but when they needed the money (ie over the last 9 months) they certainly didn't have any players that could be sold for a big fee (and if Lapado is anything to go by, they don't have to be that good to be worth a decent fee) Which is why I made the point about none of their players stepping up a league or two to a club like Blackburn Wigan or PNE

At least Managers like Holloway & Sturrock got players in who could be sold on at a profit, but I can't see many "assets" in the current squad. riding the crest of a wave in the fourth division yes, but making an impact higher up the league? No.
 
Yes, Hallett has money invested, but what's to say he won't do a Dan McCauley and suddenly decide enough is enough? Especially if the new stand isn't the moneyspinner it is hoped it will be? 

Every Argyle fan knows it's a short road from flying high in the League to the IR starting a court case


Last edited by Grovehill on Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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akagreengull
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PostSubject: Re: Lesson Learned?   Lesson Learned? EmptyWed Aug 28, 2019 8:32 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Even the Nevilles got flak for not helping out.
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Chemical Ali



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PostSubject: Re: Lesson Learned?   Lesson Learned? EmptyWed Aug 28, 2019 9:09 pm

Andy Holt (Accrington Chairman) on twitter yesterday said the difference in income from league 2 to league 1 was about £750k (I think in reference to TV money), but did say it varied from club to club (I guess the more a club is on sky, the more income they get).

But although we did have a fairly big influx on players, we did lose some high earners (Carey, Lameiras etc) and others that were signed on League 1 wages. We also had the Macey loan deal, which I imagine included a loan fee, as well as the rumoured clause that we paid his £12k a week wage if he didn't play.

Hallett's recent chairman's chat did reveal more about our finances than the previous chairman ever did, so I feel more comfortable with SH in control of the club and would think that the budget would be adhered to.
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Angry

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PostSubject: Re: Lesson Learned?   Lesson Learned? EmptyWed Aug 28, 2019 9:43 pm

akagreengull wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Even the Nevilles got flak for not helping out.

they couldnt do anything to be fair due to their stake in salford. Shame the choose to buy into that club over one their dad with the silliest name ever built up.
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Coxside_Green



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PostSubject: Re: Lesson Learned?   Lesson Learned? EmptyWed Aug 28, 2019 10:06 pm

With the exception of Danny Mayor I'm not convinced the Bury contingent are on particularly high wages.  Last summer Lowe signed McFadzean from Guiseley, Aimson from Blackpool, Moore from Bristol Rovers and Telford from Stoke, all released from their previous clubs and signed for free.  

Much has been said about Bury getting promoted with a squad they couldn't afford but does anyone really know who was being paid what?  From where I'm sat it appeared Dale had no intention of paying his staff when he bought the club for a quid, he set out to do an unfunded administrators job on them and he failed.  The real damage was caused by Stewart Day when Lowe was still a player. Trying to link Lowe to Bury's mismanagement is just pointless scaremongering.
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Chemical Ali



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PostSubject: Re: Lesson Learned?   Lesson Learned? EmptyWed Aug 28, 2019 10:46 pm

Just watched the first part of the debate and Lowe has asked a number of questions about Bury regarding high wages, being over budget etc, but he said that when he took over he cut about £1m off the budget by getting rid of players that didn't fit his system, he said he brought in about 12 - 13 players and the budget was £1.2-1.3m. He also said that he didn't have any players on the rumoured £8-9K, there were some high earners, but those players were given contracts under the previous manager. He said there was no real budget when he took over at Bury, and said his budget at Argyle is very structured.

Is willing to help Bury/ phoenix Bury in the future- raising money etc.
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