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beesrus

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PostSubject: Re: Trump will resign.....   Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:16 pm

VillageGreen wrote:

I do not now where you guys stand on the statues and other past events of US history, but I believe they should remain.

Since you bring the subject up, do you think Hussein's statue should have remained in Baghdad, laughing at his victims ?
Methinks, like Trump, you may well be using the statue thing as cover for other unpopular desires.
Do you think the BBC/government were right to pull the Jimmy Saville appearances in current showings of Top of the Pops etc as if he didn't exist ?
You either rewrite history for current sensibilities , or you don't. Do you want to see Saville on your screen ?
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Rickler

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PostSubject: Re: Trump will resign.....   Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:50 pm

You can always not watch.
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PostSubject: Re: Trump will resign.....   Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:30 am

Why we're at it, let's blow up Mount Rushmore!

Where do you stop? Why the gnashing of teeth now? Most of these so-called 'pretentious' statues and monuments have been around for many years without it being an populist issue.

Personally, I don't get it. For what it's worth, I think the statues and monuments should remain, if not at least to remind us how far we've moved on, or not. History is being erased.

How long before I have to remove my Adolf Hitler water feature from my garden? Razz

Anyway, just my opinion.
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VillageGreen

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PostSubject: Re: Trump will resign.....   Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:54 am

I fail to see how Jimmy Saville can be put into the same bracket as the current situation in the USA.

Saville was an evil man who preyed on the vulnerable and his crimes repulse in the highest order. May he rot in hell for eternity.

As for the USA, it is a different kettle of fish. It is the building of the nation and the evolution of it.

For all the many rights and all the numerous wrongs America has seen over the centuries, they have got to live with that and try to make equality a snug fit for all. They are way off that yet, they really are. The latest situation is not helping matters.

I only defend the historical accuracy as they stand in USA, I feel that by removing Confederate memorabilia of all kinds, you will alienate former Confederate States where the dwelling folk still take pride in their history, even though they know the Confederate side lost, and lost badly. The American civil war was horrific and brutal and it damaged the country beyond repair. To this day so I read, there are still niggles on both sides, deep- ingrained niggles.

Is it any wonder they will get annoyed when and if memorabilia is taken away or removed. They will view that as rewriting history and certain right-wing groups like the KKK and the armed militia types will act accordingly. That is the worrying part of it. The entire nation could well implode into civil unrest and that would be tragic.

The slave trade was bad for the UK and it was bad for the US, but the factual information says that the slave merchants of the day were seen as wealthy individuals, pillors of society, and along with certain types of Confederate in the case of America, they both contributed plenty to the cities they lived.

There is still much slavery money to be seen in countless U.S. and UK cities today (Bristol and Liverpool as examples). Even after all these years. How do you rewrite or airbrush that out, creating something new in its place.

As cringeworthy as the slave trade was, it shaped the way both countries would become, for better or worse. And for that, history must remain in place so that future generations will be able to witness, remember, debate and learn from.

Let us not forget that Washington was a slave owner before the civil war, as were one or two others from that time period. Then you had the various African tribes who attacked and captured their rivals, selling them to white slavers for a healthy profit. Swings and round-a-bouts back in those days.

If the Southern States were to suddenly start removing Union memorabilia from its turf (stuff put up straight after the war in victory), I would bemoan that too.

Where will it stop though ?.


Should Cornwall County Council demand an apology from the Irish Government for the behaviour of brutish Irish ancestors who routinely sailed to the coast of Cornwall and kidnapped men, women and children for a then slave trade.

Should the UK severe all ties with what is now Italy over the Roman invasion of Britain.

What if Sadiq Khan, as Lndon Mayor, demanded all Churchill memorabilia be removed from the whole of London, citing differences of opinion with the hierarchy of London politics.


Last edited by VillageGreen on Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Les Miserable

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PostSubject: Re: Trump will resign.....   Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:00 am

3 points is 3 points.
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beesrus

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PostSubject: Re: Trump will resign.....   Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:26 pm

There are so many people wiped from history, and so many lies told about the past. For those of you that want rid of the establishment, expect the establishment statues to go as well. Many British statues of "fine gentlemen"were pulled down in India as soon as they could, and rightly so. The polarisation of the West is continuing and such matters are bound to surface. It's called history, and who controls it, and hence future culture. It certainly isn't going to be the torch bearing clowns of hate and division.
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VillageGreen

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PostSubject: Re: Trump will resign.....   Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:40 pm

beesrus wrote:
There are so many people wiped from history, and so many lies told about the past. For those of you that want rid of the establishment, expect the establishment statues to go as well. Many British statues of "fine gentlemen"were pulled down in India as soon as they could, and rightly so. The polarisation of the West is continuing and such matters are bound to surface. It's called history, and who controls it, and hence future culture. It certainly isn't going to be the torch bearing clowns of hate and division.


In the case of the USA, the past will slowly be forgotten over time and it could result in only the slightest of token remarks being made regarding it (with only the meaningful commemorations picked). You would have to be looking at 100 + years ahead though. By then, the race issue in the States will hopefully be a distant memory too. Thus seeing equality for all.

In the hear and now, we can all agree to disagree about what should and what should not be acceptable for public viewing. The input we make will have no bearing on what the U.S. does or does not do in the coming weeks, months and years.

I read an article not long back that was reporting the fact that the Latino population in Carlifornia has over taken the white population and it is expected to continue rising for the foreseeable future. That news would have probably seen some ripples moving no doubt.

America in 100 + years will be a demographically different place to what it is now. I would predict that the country will have its first Latino President within that time frame.

I still believe that the utopian dream of Gene Roddenberry (Mr Star Trek himself) will happen in the far off future. As for a timescale, anywhere between the next 500-1,500 years as an example. Could be much longer though.

On a closing note, I read that the people of the USA do not have the same strict laws that the UK has concerning freedom of speech and freedom of expression. They cite their amendment laws allow them to be as frank as possible. And they have guns too, which they parade whenever they can. I might not agree with any of them or what they say or do, but I will fight for their right to be allowed to do what they do.


Last edited by VillageGreen on Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Trump will resign.....   Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:38 pm

I'm following a debate on a, well, debating forum, and someone throws this one into the ring!

"So if confederate monuments are to be removed because of the civil war, shouldn't Mosques be removed because of 9/11"

To say it's gotten lively is an understatement. Laughing
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Rickler

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PostSubject: Re: Trump will resign.....   Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:49 pm

VillageGreen wrote:
.

I read an article not long back that was reporting the fact that the Latino population in America has over taken the white population and it is expected to continue rising for the foreseeable future. That news would have probably seen some ripples moving no doubt.


You might need to change what you read.   Try this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States

PS.  You might be thinking of California where 'white' is now a minority.
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VillageGreen

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PostSubject: Re: Trump will resign.....   Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:55 pm

Rickler wrote:
VillageGreen wrote:
.

I read an article not long back that was reporting the fact that the Latino population in America has over taken the white population and it is expected to continue rising for the foreseeable future. That news would have probably seen some ripples moving no doubt.






You might need to change what you read.   Try this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States

PS.  You might be thinking of California where 'white' is now a minority.

Thanx for the link. It was California that I was refering  to and I will amend the post.

Interesting figures in the link. I was expecting to see a smaller white % than was quoted.

Dallas saw people out in force on Saturday just gone by.

https://www.rt.com/usa/400287-dallas-anti-racism-protest/

Reading on some American forums there are some who say it would be good to put all Confederate memorabilia in special museums, that is a fair idea.

A newer version of Roots starts on the History Channel tonigt, 9pm. May took a look and see how it matched up to the 1970s epic.
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Earwegoagain

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PostSubject: Re: Trump will resign.....   Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:56 pm

Congratulations to POTUS for starting the peace process.
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Les Miserable

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PostSubject: Re: Trump will resign.....   Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:13 pm

Seconded, doing a fine job as far as I can tell. The need for political experience is a nonsense it would seem.
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PostSubject: Re: Trump will resign.....   Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:53 pm

The world is so Lucky the poison dwarf Clinton didn't manage to get in. Amen.
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beesrus

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PostSubject: Re: Trump will resign.....   Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:01 pm

Earwegoagain wrote:
Congratulations to POTUS for starting the peace process.

I see him as starting the war process. We're only 2 games into the season, and war mongering hawks are flocking to Washington. He's on a bullying mission that can't possibly succeed, a bit like some Europeans in the past. What was it Bismark/ANOther said ? make Germany great again.

Others will say high stakes eyeballing is the way forward, as with the Cuban missile crisis and JFK. Trump admits he gets off on that sort of thing. We shall see.
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PostSubject: Re: Trump will resign.....   Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:02 pm

He's a great man.
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Frank Bullitt

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PostSubject: Re: Trump will resign.....   Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:04 pm

A great publicity stunt to make sure the whole world is talking about Trump.
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beesrus

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PostSubject: Re: Trump will resign.....   Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:08 pm

jocolor Geddon Earwig.
Far too many authoritarian leaders coming to roost at the same time. History tells us what happens. All it needs now is the central Europeans to kick out their democracy, take up the authoritarian and nationalist cudgel and we'll have the next big one. Italy's going, if Germany falls, that'll be it.
As for the Trumpet, a childlike ego that big should never be in charge of an ice cream van. He talks country, ee do.
Still, not my problem.
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PostSubject: Re: Trump will resign.....   Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:16 pm

A good day for democracy at home today to boot, well done Theresa May.
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Les Miserable

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PostSubject: Re: Trump will resign.....   Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:21 pm

She's a ditherer, we need our own Trump to sort Brexit and stop giving ground on almost every sticking point.
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PostSubject: Re: Trump will resign.....   Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:35 am

Earwegoagain wrote:
A good day for democracy at home today to boot, well done Theresa May.

The can has been kicked down the road even further....
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PostSubject: Re: Trump will resign.....   Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:00 am

Les Miserable wrote:
She's a ditherer, we need our own Trump to sort Brexit and stop giving ground on almost every sticking point.

Absolutely. May is comfortably the worst prime minister in living memory and there have been a fair few candidates for that accolade. Fecked up the general election and almost allowed the unelectable to be elected from a position of strength, leading to a cocked up Brexit-even parts of the snoopers charter which I think was partly her baby, have been declared illegal [albeit by the European judiciary].Walking disaster area and amazed that she is still in charge.
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Innocent Egbunike

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PostSubject: Re: Trump will resign.....   Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:23 am

Frank Bullitt wrote:
A great publicity stunt to make sure the whole world is talking about Trump.

Exactly that. The guy is a simpleton, a dangerous one.
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PostSubject: Re: Trump will resign.....   Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:26 am

Well as the OP I certainly got that wrong and always happy to hold my hand up.
Reading the summary of yesterday Trump does seem to have conceded on paper a lot of Strategic weaponary from the Korean Peninsula.
Dont rule out completely in 12 months time Rocket man and the Donald trading insults once again when the NK leader hasnt appeared to have stuck to any agreement
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PostSubject: Re: Trump will resign.....   Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:40 am

Maybe now he has sorted North Korea he will do something about the NRA.
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PostSubject: Re: Trump will resign.....   Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:08 am

Greenskin wrote:
Les Miserable wrote:
She's a ditherer, we need our own Trump to sort Brexit and stop giving ground on almost every sticking point.

Absolutely. May is comfortably the worst prime minister in living memory and there have been a fair few candidates for that accolade. Fecked up the general election and almost allowed the unelectable to be elected from a position of strength, leading to a cocked up Brexit-even parts of the snoopers charter which I think was partly her baby, have been declared illegal [albeit by the European judiciary].Walking disaster area and amazed that she is still in charge.

The reason she is still in charge is because her brand of robotic vagueness delays any hard decisions being made and allows the can to be kicked further along the road. Conservative Party unity being of far more importance than the National Interest.

If there was a palatable alternative to May then she would already be history. Yesterday she dodged another bullet  as the rebels, of whom there were enough to inflict defeat on the Government, hel off on the basis that the bringing her down could lead to either Bojo or JRM. So Yesterdays bill was sent back upstairs duly amended and both sides claiming a vistory however the days of "no deal being better than a bad deal" are long gone.

The Government is woefully unprepared and incapable of negotiating what is the biggest upheaval in our piecetime history. Yet at the same time scared stiff of the like of Paul Dacre (thankfully soon to 'move upstairs') and Rupert Murdoch (A US citizen born in Australia) and a supposed betrayal.

Meanwhile we have 289 days left until we supposedly leave the EU.
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